Rate my and villain's play...

[fishbutt]

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River: (19.75 BB) 2 (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, Button raises, BB 3-bets, Hero folds, Button calls.

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WTF Mate?

What hand exactly are you folding to? There's no potential flush. Straight(89) is very remote for the BB to have. You have top 2 pair, making JJ and TT unlikely. BB is not going to 3-Bet with 44. He's screaming out "HIGH POCKET PAIR!!". Only 3 hands that have you beat are JJ, TT or 98 are all very unlikely given your holdings and the preflop action. I think you're making a huge mistake to fold here on the river when you can't even put BB on a winning hand. Only player you have to fear is Button holding a low set, but as you said he's a fish.

I think you have to make a crying call here and hope nobody's got a set. Final pot was ~27 BB's => 13.5:1 pot odds => you have to show down the winner only 7.5% of the time to make this call correct. Just think...if you make 2BB/hr, you just wiped out 13.5 hours of profit in this one hand.

You're going to lose a lot of money anytime you hit top two-pair against a set with no flushes on board. That's just the way it goes. You cannot assume the worst and even if you do think you're beaten, folding a winner in such an enormous pot is a much bigger mistake than calling down.

[HoneyBadger]

It's slightly different. Button is likely to cap it, so I have to put in 3 more bets for a final pot of 28.75 bets; that's 9.6:1, which means I have to be good 9.5% of the time. Even though the button is a fish, he is raising the field after this action and surely must know one of us is calling him down. So he must have a hand, unless he is completely, utterly retarded. I read BB as a reasonable player, and he must also know this; furthermore, he must realize that I have at least a pair of kings, yet he doesn't seem to care: he still 3 bets. I just didn't think that almost 10% of the time I would be up against two loons. One of whom, as poker bob so nicely said, should probably be in a padded cell [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Atrium]

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You cannot assume the worst and even if you do think you're beaten, folding a winner in such an enormous pot is a much bigger mistake than calling down.

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I couldn't agree more. In Small Stakes Hold'em they say one of the biggest mistakes (other than playing weak off-suit hands in EP) is folding when the pot large. "By calling you might loose a bet but by folding you loose (forfeit) the entire pot." I understand that if you had called after the reraise it might have been capped and you would have called 3 extra bets but I think the principal of this saying still applies.

[Hyperrrprank]

I think this hand is a prime example of why having a lock on the play style of your opponents is so important. The villians in this hand are almost certainly playing their unique brands of dumb consistently. Once you note that it makes the decision to toss or call here much easier.

Against unknowns, I tend to revert to calling down when something doesn't make any sense, generally it means they've made a mistake.

[DeuceKicker]

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You cannot assume the worst and even if you do think you're beaten, folding a winner in such an enormous pot is a much bigger mistake than calling down.

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I couldn't agree more. In Small Stakes Hold'em they say one of the biggest mistakes (other than playing weak off-suit hands in EP) is folding when the pot large. "By calling you might loose a bet but by folding you loose (forfeit) the entire pot." I understand that if you had called after the reraise it might have been capped and you would have called 3 extra bets but I think the principal of this saying still applies.

[/ QUOTE ]The fact that you are calling two bets--and likely three--makes all the difference in the world, and negates the quoted passage.

No offense, but I think if OP hadn't posted the results he'd be hearing very few arguments to call the river.

[BigBadBabar]

i just read this for the first time and haven't seen results yet

cap the turn

and don't fold the river even though it's kind of gross

[Xhad]

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You cannot assume the worst and even if you do think you're beaten, folding a winner in such an enormous pot is a much bigger mistake than calling down.

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I couldn't agree more. In Small Stakes Hold'em they say one of the biggest mistakes (other than playing weak off-suit hands in EP) is folding when the pot large. "By calling you might loose a bet but by folding you loose (forfeit) the entire pot." I understand that if you had called after the reraise it might have been capped and you would have called 3 extra bets but I think the principal of this saying still applies.

[/ QUOTE ]The fact that you are calling two bets--and likely three--makes all the difference in the world, and negates the quoted passage.

No offense, but I think if OP hadn't posted the results he'd be hearing very few arguments to call the river.

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Hey, another excuse for me to post this!

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I'll give a quick river tip that will hopefully help some people. Bets mean something, but raises mean a whole lot more. They mean more still if you've called in between. For instance, just last night I folded K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] board for a single bet, closing the action in a 23BB pot...

--Ed Miller

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[James.]

i would cap the turn.

as played, you should be raising the river. since you didn't, you sort of opened yourself up to being outplayed.

sure, it is often a muck if your read on the button is accurate. in fact, the play on the end is entirely dependent on the button because we have the BB beat here pretty much all of the time. in addition, given this is 6max and people are prone to spastic fits of retardation at these levels(missed draws, worse two pair, overpair etc.) you need to look at the overlay you are getting to make the call, sack up and put the money in.

what level of tilt did this fold induce? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[HoneyBadger]

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i would cap the turn.

as played, you should be raising the river. since you didn't, you sort of opened yourself up to being outplayed.


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Yeah, I wasn't too thrilled about my play. I'm new to 6max also; not used to these weird plays. In FR his turn 3-bet is almost always JJ.
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what level of tilt did this fold induce? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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I sat out and timed out on the other 7 tables. I'm not sure I really tilted, can't remember. I think I just quit the session.

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possible collusion between BB and Button.

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It's funny you say that because that's exactly what my first thought was. I remember saying to myself "Woh guys, are we teaming?"

[timmer]

Im wondering why you didnt play the turn harder from the middle.

Ps I hate your river fold.

so, how did you do ?

<font color="white"> Ouch MUBsie. </font>