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#23
07-11-2007, 10:46 AM
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Re: 50NL - KK, WA/WB?
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how calling away 100bb on KK in this spot is any good. [/ QUOTE ] No one said that. Not even OP. 
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#25
07-11-2007, 10:58 AM
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Re: 50NL - KK, WA/WB?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] How can 4betting be possibly good? You loose more money than just calling down [/ QUOTE ] How so? Hero raises to $32 -> lost $27.5 Hero calls down as he did -> lost $67.5 [/ QUOTE ] There are different ways to loose money. In this hand, after you call flop If he has a ten - you loose 20 on the turn, you dont loose a cent on the river. The fact how you played the river has nothing to do with how it should have been played. If he has a queen - you win 20 on the turn, you dont win a cent on the river. Say you raise flop - If he has a ten - you loose 27. It can actually get funny here, since he will most likely check the turn, you check behind and then bet little on the river. So you probably loose another 15-20 there [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] If he has a queen - you loose 20. Bottom line, if you raise, no matter what he really has, you loose.
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#26
07-11-2007, 10:59 AM
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Re: 50NL - KK, WA/WB?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] How can 4betting be possibly good? You loose more money than just calling down [/ QUOTE ] How so? Hero raises to $32 -> lost $27.5 Hero calls down as he did -> lost $67.5 [/ QUOTE ] ...if he lost. What you forget is that in a WA/WB situation, you WIN much more money by calling down when it turns out that you are way ahead. If villain is on a bluff, hero's flop three-bet wins him about $15. If villain is on a bluff and hero calls down, he wins about $67. The question, really, is "how often is hero ahead versus behind?" Keep in mind that we've devolved into a blind-vs-blind situation. Assuming that hero is an aggressive player, he could often make this raise with a thin hand, hoping to scoop Button's (stupid) limp and SB's completion. After Button folds, that gives SB lots of room to play back at hero, with a wide range of hands. Given the flop, I'd think my QJ was good against an aggressive opponent on this board and I'd bet it aggressively. I'd also go to town with a strong flush draw or an OESD. Even a pocket pair looks good on an aceless paired board. If you give SB too narrow a range, you really screw yourself here. Sure, a T is possible, but so a Q is 50% more likely based on raw odds. I'd say hero is ahead more often than he is behind, and calling down wins the most money. Forget about losing the least -- we've got an overpair in a heads-up blind battle! Call down for fun and profit.
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#27
07-11-2007, 11:09 AM
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Re: 50NL - KK, WA/WB?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] How can 4betting be possibly good? You loose more money than just calling down [/ QUOTE ] How so? Hero raises to $32 -> lost $27.5 Hero calls down as he did -> lost $67.5 [/ QUOTE ] ...if he lost. What you forget is that in a WA/WB situation, you WIN much more money by calling down when it turns out that you are way ahead. If villain is on a bluff, hero's flop three-bet wins him about $15. If villain is on a bluff and hero calls down, he wins about $67. The question, really, is "how often is hero ahead versus behind?" Keep in mind that we've devolved into a blind-vs-blind situation. Assuming that hero is an aggressive player, he could often make this raise with a thin hand, hoping to scoop Button's (stupid) limp and SB's completion. After Button folds, that gives SB lots of room to play back at hero, with a wide range of hands. Given the flop, I'd think my QJ was good against an aggressive opponent on this board and I'd bet it aggressively. I'd also go to town with a strong flush draw or an OESD. Even a pocket pair looks good on an aceless paired board. If you give SB too narrow a range, you really screw yourself here. Sure, a T is possible, but so a Q is 50% more likely based on raw odds. I'd say hero is ahead more often than he is behind, and calling down wins the most money. Forget about losing the least -- we've got an overpair in a heads-up blind battle! Call down for fun and profit. [/ QUOTE ] Thats about how I was thinking when I was playing the hand.
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#29
07-11-2007, 11:14 AM
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Re: 50NL - KK, WA/WB?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] How can 4betting be possibly good? You loose more money than just calling down [/ QUOTE ] How so? Hero raises to $32 -> lost $27.5 Hero calls down as he did -> lost $67.5 [/ QUOTE ] ...if he lost. What you forget is that in a WA/WB situation, you WIN much more money by calling down when it turns out that you are way ahead. If villain is on a bluff, hero's flop three-bet wins him about $15. If villain is on a bluff and hero calls down, he wins about $67. The question, really, is "how often is hero ahead versus behind?" [/ QUOTE ] Argh. This here isn't a WA/WB situation at all. If SB has Ax clubs he has 12 outs, plenty of other possible hands with lots of outs, too.
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#30
07-11-2007, 11:28 AM
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Re: 50NL - KK, WA/WB?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] How can 4betting be possibly good? You loose more money than just calling down [/ QUOTE ] How so? Hero raises to $32 -> lost $27.5 Hero calls down as he did -> lost $67.5 [/ QUOTE ] There are different ways to loose money. In this hand, after you call flop If he has a ten - you loose 20 on the turn, you dont loose a cent on the river. The fact how you played the river has nothing to do with how it should have been played. If he has a queen - you win 20 on the turn, you dont win a cent on the river. Say you raise flop - If he has a ten - you loose 27. It can actually get funny here, since he will most likely check the turn, you check behind and then bet little on the river. So you probably loose another 15-20 there [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] If he has a queen - you loose 20. Bottom line, if you raise, no matter what he really has, you loose. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, ok. I thought your "calling down" meant calling down like OP did (since you did not clarify that you would not have called the river bet).
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