Affiliate convention in Amsterdam-discussions of rakeback

[billyjex]

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I have paid a ton of rake to party poker in the past and I'm currently looking for a good rakeback deal. I feel somewhat cheated by them (party) and lied to. As such I will probably quit playing at party until they offer some kind of RB.

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Poker sites do not pay rakeback to players. They pay rakeback to affiliates to bring in new players. Affiliates invented giving rakeback to the players, not the poker sites.

What is happening, (and you are one example of thousands), is that existing players are trying to create duplicate accounts through rakeback affiliates in order to get rakeback. This doesn't bring in any new revenue for the site, and in fact it actually reduces their revenue. If you can't understand why the sites are against having their existing player base cannibalized by this, then you're blind.

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I, like microbob, used to play exclusively on a party skin (30k hands a month.) Even since they split from the skins, I have not played one hand on the party network and split it between networks I get rakeback on. It's not a question of just people creating new accounts, thus causing 25% or so less revenue for party.. often times party will lose 100% of that players revenue to another site.

[xxSTWxx]

I'm nothing to do with the affiliate industry, but this is an interesting discussion.

I started playing 7 or 8 months ago and signed up for a couple of sites before I ever heard of rakeback (Absolute being one). Now I do know about it. So the result is I haven't played at Absolute in months, I play at other sites that I do get RB. If I could easily open a new account, I'd probably play at Absolute.

So the site is losing all the revenue that I would generate as I just play at other sites. Its the same at Party - the only time I'll play there is when they offer me a bonus.

I guess the bottom line is that the sites know they are losing some revenue by their attitude, but probably judge that what they are losing is less than what they could potentially lose if they opened the floodgates and make it easy for people to open a new account for RB.

I have no idea if their maths is right is not, but its their business, so I guess its up to them....

[berya]

"If you can't understand why the sites are against having their existing player base cannibalized by this, then you're blind."

What are you talking about. The guy is a player. Do you understand what a player is? A paying customer? He does not need to understand anything from their side. The customer is always right. I'm another customer. WAS another customer. I took my action somewhere else. The 5K-6K a month that I was paying them went bye bye.

[RakeTheRake]

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1) we need to help sites police their spammers-our players are playing at these tables daily-lets help the sites maintain their database.

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Firstly, thanks for the kind words!

Secondly i think this point is very important
This is exactly what caused the lock down at Tribeca
Here is a what to do if someone spams a table you are at...
(other affiliates please feel free to add to this or amend)

1) Play dumb...pretend rakeback is new to you and get them to explain more
2) Note the poker room, table name, time and player's name.
3) if you can get them to give you their URL or email great (of course someone might be trying to get another affiliate into trouble by pretending to be them...but the poker room can check IP addresses)
4) You may have to give them your email address and then they will send you details....get whatever you can including links to the poker rooms. This is the most important information as these links will contain the tracking code which will help identify the affiliate.
5) Send the details to the poker room support or send them to info@raketherake.com and we will pass them on to all the poker rooms that the affiliate deals with

Basically...get as much from them as you can without letting on that you are going to turn them in.....

Happy holidays to all

RTR

[beanie]

I would go a step further, I would like to begin a bounty program. I know there are card rooms that would entertain this idea, especially if we show them we are willing to bleed with them. All of my subaffiliates are quite diligent in this regard.

I think this is an idea we rakeback affiliates are ready for. We are a part of the industry now and we need to start acting responsibly.

Additionally, we need to help the cardrooms maintain their databases and we should be paid to do so. Currently if a customer comes to me and asks can they get rakeback through me at Party Poker I have to say no, but I can send you to UB. Certainly it would be in Party Poker's interest for me to let them know they are about to lose a customer and help there player retention efforts. I have said it a million times the customers would take 15% from the site as opposed to 25% from us and I did a poll that basically proved this point. That means they have 10% to whack up. Certainly my efforts to help them keep a customer is worth a part of that.

[AAAA]

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Currently if a customer comes to me and asks can they get rakeback through me at Party Poker I have to say no, but I can send you to UB

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this is the single most important concept!

I am not sure we work for the sites, however!

I believe the rake comes from the player...we owe our agency to the person who pays us! Real estate went through this argument for years, but now has come to a "buyers' agency" being the norm!

The site is just a collection and dispersal agent for the rake money!

[beanie]

I am thinking as a partner to the site. You sound like a customer. Your position is completely reasonable if you are a customer but if you want to continue getting comps and or rakeback it may indeed be in your best interest. That is why I believe there is a need for bounties.

[Pokeraddict]

Oh, I almost forgot. I have heard nothing but positive about the presentation RTR and Rakerebate.net gave. I wish I could have been there to help in it but there is just too much going on. Congrats to you two for a job well done.

[Pokeraddict]

nothing personal against RRR, but unless they agreed to operate as a non profit site, why should they get preferential treatment about being the only place to advertise rakeback? (I doubt the owners would like to give up the probably substantial income generated)

No offense taken at all but I'm not sure I understand this statement.

As for being the only place to advertise rakeback I think most affiliates will tell you RRR and 2+2 are about the only effective places to advertise it. Most large poker forums will not allow outside affiliate advertising because they have their own agendas which conflict. I think most will agree those few other forums that allow rb advertising turn out to be a waste of money most if not all of the time. I have wasted many thousands of dollars trying and I know many others have too. I seriously doubt there will be any growth in places to advertise rb. My opinion is biased but I think most affiliates agree that more directories arent the answer either. The only answer is more places to advertise in existing large communities which will probably never happen.

RRR ran non profit at first as more of a player advocate site for its first 2 months and I honestly didnt think it would ever make more then a few hundred dollars a month. I did it because I am pro player which probably stems from my long time involvement in the Casinomeister community. Obviously there was an unexpected, massive amount of demand for it and IMO it took RRR or a site like it that surely would have launched eventually to help get rakeback out in the open and help this industry boom as it is now. I still am baffled by the explosive growth it had.

Keep in mind before RRR virtually all affiliates worked out of gmail accounts or forum private messages without any real check and balance. Now it is close to a full time job, I seriously doubt anyone would do it for free. I quit a very profitable propping situation because I no longer had time to do it, well, I was burned out too. The advertising money has to come from somewhere and the work it takes to keep RRR a Google authority site is not easy. There are more hours of work in the content and publishing then most will ever know. This is why content thieves are such a pet peeve to me.

I guess that got a bit OT. I'm happy to discuss openly a way to improve RRR. I always run major changes by affiliates on a majority rules vote but most ideas get voted down. This either tells me RRR is doing well as is or my ideas suck. I'm always open for suggestions on how to improve RRR and feedback positive or negative from anyone. If nobody tells me what they dont like I cant improve.

[AAAA]

There are poker portals that have been advertising for poker players for a long time. There are many who advertise rake discounts in some fashion.

The only reason I brought it up was there was a comment that RRR should be the only "legal" place to advertise rake back. That wouldn't be logical or fair.

Believe me, I know a site like yours takes work.

The discussion here about initial referral period and long term residuals is the answer to my mind. It is kind of a hybrid that encourages people to market for new players but protects the affiliate until they have recouped their expenses and made a profit.

networks can then spend time enforcing the one account per network rule and allow players to migrate to new sites that perform better or offer innovative games or tourneys. The new site will get the skin share of the profit, because the customer chose the color scheme or the promotion, but the original affiliate who brought the player still gets paid.

Above all, the customer gets an automatic site sponsored rebate after they have paid their dues.