Is poker gambling?

[WildBobAA]

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OP, just make sure you're a winning player and making lots of money, and no one will question you.

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Not true at all.

[fishbutt]

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What makes poker a game of skill?

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The fact that the decisions you make has a real effect on your long term expected outcome.

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Close. However, by your definition of a skill game, all casino games are skill games too since there are varying degrees of -EV decisions that can lead to a steeper negative slope in the long term expected income (ie: playing roulette has a much lower return that playing slots).

A person can make +EV decisions in skill games, whereas in casino games a person simply makes decisions that are all -EV(or 0 EV) but to different degrees. Skill games put the players in situations with either +EV or -EV decisions available and it is up to the player to determine which decisions are +EV and which are -EV. Non-skill games don't offer this -- all decisions are -EV.

[Josem]

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What makes poker a game of skill?

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The fact that the decisions you make has a real effect on your long term expected outcome.

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Close. However, by your definition of a skill game, all casino games are skill games too since there are varying degrees of -EV decisions that can lead to a steeper negative slope in the long term expected income (ie: playing roulette has a much lower return that playing slots).

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I agree that all casino games are game of skill. Ironically, however, the most skillful way to play those games is to not play.

Clearly, betting $1 on roulette has an expectation.

Betting $2 on roulette has a more negative expectation.

Thus, I'd suggest that a more skillful roulette player would be whoever bets less.

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A person can make +EV decisions in skill games, whereas in casino games a person simply makes decisions that are all -EV(or 0 EV) but to different degrees. Skill games put the players in situations with either +EV or -EV decisions available and it is up to the player to determine which decisions are +EV and which are -EV. Non-skill games don't offer this -- all decisions are -EV.

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I don't agree with this.

Take an example where 50% of the pot in poker was raked (obviously an extreme example, but it's for illustrative purposes only). Poker would still be a skill game - but it would also be -EV.

Surely the amount of rake taken from the pot does not change whether poker is a game of skill... but that seems to be the implication of your line of reasoning.

In other words, I'm trying to say that the question of something being +EV or -EV is a separate issue from whether it is a game of skill.


Another, non-gambling example - driving at 200km/h clearly requires a chunk of skill (to avoid running into trees, for example). However, I believe it is also -EV, 'cause the benefits of succeeding (winning the race) are massively outweighed by the costs of crashing (dying).

[PokerBob]

poker is gambling. thread over.

[Mike Gallo]

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poker is gambling. thread over.

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I wish I read all the answers before I posted mine.

[smurfitup]

What are ways to get around poker as gambling? (to make it NOT gambling)

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The only thing I could think of is giving players the amount of equity they have in a pot if they're all-in before the river.

[costanza_g]

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What are ways to get around poker as gambling? (to make it NOT gambling)


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Dont play for money.

[Mike Gallo]

Poker is gambling.

The end.

[jedi]

We call them "donkaments" for a reason.

Also, as someone pointed out, just because poker is a game of skill doesn't mean it's not gambling. chess is 100% skill, but if you wager your money to someone else's you're also gambling.

Of course, you're also gambling every time you invest in the stock market or even drive to work.

[Albert Moulton]

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What is gambling?


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–verb (used without object)
1. to play at any game of chance for money or other stakes.
2. to stake or risk money, or anything of value, on the outcome of something involving chance: to gamble on a toss of the dice.

–verb (used with object)
3. to lose or squander by betting (usually fol. by away): He gambled all his hard-earned money away in one night.
4. to wager or risk (money or something else of value): to gamble one's freedom.
5. to take a chance on; venture; risk: I'm gambling that our new store will be a success.

–noun
6. any matter or thing involving risk or hazardous uncertainty.
7. a venture in a game of chance for stakes, esp. for high stakes.

[Origin: 1150–1200; ME gamenen to play (OE gamenian), with substitution of -le for -en; see game1]


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Is poker gambling?


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You bet it is.


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What makes poker a game of skill?


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A skillful player is able to manipulate the variables involved in poker hands over the course of his career such that he will have an average positive expectation for every bet he make in games with one or more less skillful players.

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Does the fact that poker is a game of skill change anything?


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If you mean, does the fact that poker involve skill makes it "not" gambling, then the answer is "no." Poker is gambling. It is also a game of skill. The two concepts, "skill" and "gambling" are not mutually exclusive. There are plenty of games of skill that involve elements of chance and become "gambling" if you wager money on it the outcome.


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Do tournaments have less of a "gambling factor" than cash games?


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No. If anything, as you get closer to the end of the tournament, it becomes pure gambling. My 77 vs your AKs. My KQs vs your 44. Etc.

But in the long run, as in "forever," poker is poker. If you consistently make +EV decisions, then you will make money. If you are good at maximizing that EV by manipulating your opponents and making appropriate bets, calls, and folds, then you will eventually make money in both tournaments as well as cash games.

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What are ways to get around poker as gambling? (to make it NOT gambling)


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If you didn't play poker for money or any other stakes, then it wouldn't be gambling. But it wouldn't be much in the way of poker, either.