Drawy board with bottom pair and position on Turn

[Bruce D]

An 8, 9, Q, and K on the river kill us. Add to that that a spade looks ugly, I don't think we can check this. A bet may be -EV, but I think it's even worse -EV to check this behind with these two specific players. We also give the opportunity for the SB holding 7x to pair up on the river.

I agree that we don't bet the river unless we improve to one of our 5 outs.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
If the river goes bet-fold, then that means the unknown SB has decided to take a crack at it, and as a general rule I'm not going to put an unknown on a stone-cold bluff into two opponents on a river blank, and if he has less than A7, it's basically a stone-cold bluff. And if he did take us off the best hand, then hey, he's got some stones, he deserves five BB. We'll find out how good his bluff-fu is later on when it's not our 1 BB we're spending looking him up.

And good Lord, a T is about the last card I'd want to see. I'd sooner call a river J than a river T, DUCY?

[/ QUOTE ]

Last sentence first, I had it in my head that the flop was T97 rather than JT7, so change that to J. I still think folding is bad if the top card pairs.

As to "donks don't bluff", weren't you the one saying in another thread that checking behind A-high on a whiffed flop turns our hand face up? But this doesn't I guess (if it does and you think they won't act on it, then I would like to know why they'd act on it on a flop but not here)? There are plenty of donks who will bluff here and literally no other time, and there are plenty of draws for a donk to get here with.

[Nemesis69]

Bet this. They both might be on a draw. If you get called, check the river or fold to a bet.

[Seven_of_Cups]

If it was heads up against the UTG you have a good read on I would bet. The SB adds a wrinkle that would make me want to check the turn and only call the river if it was heads up.

[Nogatsira]

I'd check it down 3way, re-evaluate river.

[marchron]

[ QUOTE ]
As to "donks don't bluff", weren't you the one saying in another thread that checking behind A-high on a whiffed flop turns our hand face up? But this doesn't I guess (if it does and you think they won't act on it, then I would like to know why they'd act on it on a flop but not here)? There are plenty of donks who will bluff here and literally no other time, and there are plenty of draws for a donk to get here with.

[/ QUOTE ]
Our hand wouldn't be face-up if we checked here. There's plenty of hands that would make sense to raise preflop, bet the flop and check behind the turn: 7x, Tx, flush draws, KQ. If someone bets on this river, they're far more likely to have a weak Jx or Tx than a busted draw. Besides, one guy is passive and the other's unknown: I'm giving some credit to their river donkbets until I learn otherwise.

But in the other hand, on a low monotone flop, if we don't c-bet in position, even morons will peg us on naked overs with no flush draw 90+% of the time. If the turn's a blank, we will be bet off the best hand a lot more often than we will here. We can also very occasionally win the pot on the flop with a c-bet.

[bozlax]

First off, [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] the pfr.

On the turn, fire one more time, fold to a c/r, take a free showdown UI. You should be inducing bluffs in direct ratio with the known player's aggression; this guy sounds passive, so you're better off going free SD.

Meh, I take it back, wash the little bit of vomit out of your mouth and call a c/r.

[Buzz-cp]

I don't mind betting here, but why are people are talking about bet/fold? We have a good hand with showdown value, and so I don't like folding. Plus we can likely improve to the best two pair with 3 outs. I like the idea of betting here, because we don't really get c/r that often, and we can probably showdown our hand for free if the board gets scarier.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
There's plenty of hands that would make sense to raise preflop, bet the flop and check behind the turn: 7x, Tx, flush draws, KQ. If someone bets on this river, they're far more likely to have a weak Jx or Tx than a busted draw. Besides, one guy is passive and the other's unknown: I'm giving some credit to their river donkbets until I learn otherwise.

But in the other hand, on a low monotone flop, if we don't c-bet in position, even morons will peg us on naked overs with no flush draw 90+% of the time. If the turn's a blank, we will be bet off the best hand a lot more often than we will here. We can also very occasionally win the pot on the flop with a c-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're pfr'ing 7x/Tx? Other than the 7x we HAVE? And now we're assuming that .50/1 villans are even trying to read hands, much less succeeding? And they're passive enough to call down with 2nd/top pair, but aggressive enough to value-bet it on the river when we check the turn?

I think I see what you're trying to say, march, but I think you're all over the board on this one. Maybe a little "it got posted so it must be a loser" MUBS?

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
There's plenty of hands that would make sense to raise preflop, bet the flop and check behind the turn: 7x, Tx, flush draws, KQ. If someone bets on this river, they're far more likely to have a weak Jx or Tx than a busted draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't check Tx on that turn. Also, realize that most of what you gave is stuff that is folding and while villain's thought process is not going to be that sophisticated, many of them are going to say "lol AK" and be close enough. The third player still makes a bluff stupid, but that's the sort of thing donks don't notice. Here's a hand I almost posted, I know this doesn't prove anything but this does happen more often than you seem to think, and unlike my hand you beat things like 55 that randomly decide to do this.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks.

River: (4.70 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 6.70 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has 5s Qd (one pair, tens).
MP3 has Ac Jc (one pair, tens).
Outcome: MP3 wins 6.70 BB. </font>