Sit and Gos- Is the rake fair?

[good2cu]

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no.

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yes?

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no

[gumpzilla]

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At this point, high limit sngs will be destroyed and that's no good for Pokerstars.

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You don't think a bunch of these people will just switch over to cash games?

[suzzer99]

I agree with all of this. Go Lee!

Just one thing I'm not sure about is the breakeven players eventually being pushed out at the high buyin SNGs. Aren't a lot of these dudes the same gamblers who have been playing these things forever?

Nevertheless I do agree with the argument that if you keep the games viable for a few pros, they will tend to keep the games going and increase traffic. The key is just to somehow convince PS that if they halve their rake, they could double their business or more.

Unfortunately this probably isn't something where they could experiment with a lower rake, then go back if it failed to drum up the necessary traffic. For one thing that would piss people off, and it would take a while to see any results. They'd have to be comitted for the long haul.

[curtains]

Im happy they are very difficult now, cash games are awesome!

[Michael C.]

As one of those -2% - +2% high limit SNG players that DC was talking about, I agree with his post 100%. I love SNGs and will continue playing them on both Party and Stars for now, but once I get a block of free time I think I need to learn ring strategy since the playing pool on Stars just makes it too hard to overcome the rake for a significant profit, especially compared to cash games. Great post, and right on.

[billxo1b]

even in the mid limit SnG, say ($60), the rake (5/55=9.1%) is too high. it is hard to attain better than 10% ROI at this level.

[Hercules]

Yeah, i was thinking about the amount of the rake like probably everyone does. IMO, these sites get way to much rake. They don`t have to pay any dealer (as far as i know no heating, no waiters etc...
They are printing money, which is perfectly ok. But like in real business there is a thing called "saturation point". And i think we reached that point in SNG`s. And they are really only doing themself a favor if they lower the rake.
However, i am suspicious, why NO site is competing for rake. Didn`t anybody ever think about that. In every business they are competing with coupons bonuses, christmas special offers and all that [censored] stuff...[ok, sites do offer bonus, but only something like first deposit, which is only for new players and not for regular customers]

So why are these sites not competing?! I don`t wanna bring up silly conspiracy theories. I am just rational business-like thinking. Do they have a kind of gentleman`s agreement?!

However,i think i can talk almost in the name of every regular SNG-junkie, that it will not take me more than a second to switch from stars if a site like Bodog etc. would offer a significant better rake. Just think what a 1 or 2 Dollar lower rake can affect over 2k SNG`s....don`t wanna imagine that, otherwise i get sick...


Its ok if the site earns big bucks. But they should be smart enough to know some business ideas, which even a 20 year old knows: "If you take all the money from your customers, take it at least slowly,so they don`t recognize it"

Maybe some bad players wake up after loosing 5000$ a day...Maybe they just think they were unlucky if they lost 50 times 100$...

So DCJ is more than right, and we should really do something about it. I don`t think there is a conflict of interest between the site and us players, although I don`t know how the site will handle the lower earnings from SNG`s for about a month [it will take at least that long for new players to come etc...]



Ok guys...what about if a seasoned pro like DCJ or somebody else writes a letter and share our thoughts with the support?!
Its kind of hard to believe that they will lower the rake significantly, but we can give it a try...

[DCJ311]

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So why are these sites not competing?! I don`t wanna bring up silly conspiracy theories. I am just rational business-like thinking. Do they have a kind of gentleman`s agreement?!



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Not every business model is 100% perfect. Pokerstars' is very good, though. We can at least give them credit for having lower vig than most other sites, but the fact of the matter is that they could be doing better.

Rake in online poker is WAY too high and it is a matter of time before rake will go down in all games. The point is that it is especially highest in SNGs and HU matches, although I haven't addressed the latter specifically.

The fewer players in a tournament, the more of an edge you will need to break even. It is that simple. SNGs are now too competitive for the rake to be where it is. Some of us pay enough rake a year for sites to pay attention.

Pokerstars is my favorite site by far in terms of what they offer, but they fact of the matter is that players will only get what they want if they make an effort to do so. Lee is a fair man, he will listen. His job is to make the players happy without putting his site at expense.

I recommend all sng players to write to pokermanager@pokerstars.com with your feedback. You guys are right, it is not just the higher limit players getting a raw deal. Even if you play $15 sngs you can make a difference. I gave Lee a link to this thread, maybe he will pop up in it if we're lucky. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] In the meantime keep posting as I'm pretty impressed with the responses so far.

[Schmitty 87]

With the increased difficulty of sngos across the board, I have attempted the move to playing cash games two or three times. However, I am still much more comfortable playing sngos, with Stars being my favorite site by far. Eventually though, I will HAVE to move to cash games. I've made 5 figures playing sngos and probably a 10th of that playing cash games, but it's just too hard to beat higher limit sngos (with the rake certainly a large factor).

With the lack of rakeback, Stars is not and will not be the site where I play cash games. Full Tilt is simply more profitable. However, if Stars were to reduce rake on sngos, there's no doubt that my move to cash games on another site would be delayed if not altogether stopped.

[Hercules]

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With the increased difficulty of sngos across the board, I have attempted the move to playing cash games two or three times. However, I am still much more comfortable playing sngos, with Stars being my favorite site by far. Eventually though, I will HAVE to move to cash games. I've made 5 figures playing sngos and probably a 10th of that playing cash games, but it's just too hard to beat higher limit sngos (with the rake certainly a large factor).

With the lack of rakeback, Stars is not and will not be the site where I play cash games. Full Tilt is simply more profitable. However, if Stars were to reduce rake on sngos, there's no doubt that my move to cash games on another site would be delayed if not altogether stopped.

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Lets pray that Lee reads that...IMO they would be everything but not smart, if they don`t lower the rake significantly...Its dangerous to loose customers, since it is very hard to win them back...