Starting out in Limit

[SellingtheDrama]

I like that line, its pretty standard - especially if you feel you can get substantial river action (which you did). The other factor is that you have better odds than a naked flush draw - gutshot straight draw helps.

When you see the turn, you are 23.8% against the hands of set deuces/AJ. The first call is automatic (vs a fold), and once it is 3 bets back to you, you know its a 3 way capped pot if you call - so its 3BB to win 15.2 in the pot. That's an acceptable price.

And when we're talking about limit play (this is also true in PLO often, but I digress), it's entirely common to have both players playing a hand correctly when it goes bet-call. Player A is ahead so he is right to bet. Player B is mathematically getting the proper immediate odds to call, so he does. Perfectly normal, happens almost every hand, especially if the pot gets bloated early.

[JH1]

Kurn, umm I don't have a pair on the river, I have the nuts.

Selling, thanks for the advice. Your last paragraph is what I'm really struggling with in my head though. I just can't wrap my mind around both players playing correctly because it seems like the only thing that separates the winning players from the losing players then is variance which in the long term is supposed to even out, therefore that makes everyone who can count odds and outs a winner which is probably more than half the poker playing community, which makes this impossible. Sorry this is just weird poker theory stuff I'm making up.

Anyways, in the hand above UTG had J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for 2 pair and UTG+2 had Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for the turned straight. We all played this hand correctly except for UTG on the river I suppose. I'll have to think about this some more, weird.

[Quicksilvre]

[ QUOTE ]
Kurn, umm I don't have a pair on the river, I have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's talking about the first hand, I think.

[SellingtheDrama]

[ QUOTE ]
Kurn, umm I don't have a pair on the river, I have the nuts.

Selling, thanks for the advice. Your last paragraph is what I'm really struggling with in my head though. I just can't wrap my mind around both players playing correctly because it seems like the only thing that separates the winning players from the losing players then is variance which in the long term is supposed to even out, therefore that makes everyone who can count odds and outs a winner which is probably more than half the poker playing community, which makes this impossible. Sorry this is just weird poker theory stuff I'm making up.

Anyways, in the hand above UTG had J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for 2 pair and UTG+2 had Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for the turned straight. We all played this hand correctly except for UTG on the river I suppose. I'll have to think about this some more, weird.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many poker players think they understand concepts but apply them horribly. And you are absolutely correct that variance can be a huge part of limit games, and you now know why. I don't frequent the limit forums, but this is the crux of why winrates are so thin relative to big bet games.

And yeah I've struggled with the same concepts too - I basically don't ever play LHE for a reason.

[Dalek]

I think he means in a specific hand both players can play correctly. Over the course of thousands of hands it becomes clearer that one player plays better.

I would raise pre-flop with AQ suited but my experience with limit is small. Is this an alright play or should i just call with AQ type hands?

Definitely raise preflop with AQs.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Uh, How is QQ the nuts on a JT542 board?

[JH1]

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, How is QQ the nuts on a JT542 board?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry thought you were talking about the second hand I posted where I rivered a flush.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Uh, How is QQ the nuts on a JT542 board?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry thought you were talking about the second hand I posted where I rivered a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I realized that after I posted this. Sorry for the confusion.

[MattHH]

[ QUOTE ]
You make money in limit when you realize that your made hand or draw is not the best and fold, saving bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are many ways to save bets in limit, but they are not limited to folding.

[ QUOTE ]
It just didn't make sense to me before how you could have winning players because if there multiple players in pots all getting 5:1 a lot of the time or better, they are almost always all correct to call, therefore no one is making mistakes and therefore everyone should be a winner which does not compute.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of times, people are not getting the correct odds to call and they call anyways, donating money to everybody else. Also, you have to think about making their odds worse by raising/ check-raising to make opponents get worse odds (in the appropriate situations).

If you haven't read ToP yet, I highly recommend it.