Ranking of AK among best starting hands

[Albert Moulton]

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Doyle Brunson tells stories of $500 coinflips with 22 and his opponent holding AK. His opponents usually gave up after losing a few thousand.

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this clearly proves 22 is the better starting hand IMO

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lol, unless the AK is suited, and the 22 doesn't have one of the AK's suit.


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.084% 49.77% 00.31% 852207 5387.50 { AsKs }
Hand 1: 49.916% 49.60% 00.31% 849322 5387.50 { 2d2h }

[futuredoc85]

OHHHHHHHHHHH SNAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

[Joey2Cards]

To answer your query as to why you find AK harder to play than 22 it's because most of the time 22 is useless after the flop and can be chucked away. Easy.

You can get trapped with AK if you don't realise that it's a drawing hand. If you don't hit, you have nothing. It's easy to forget this because it looks so sexy.

[4CardStraight]

I think theres quite a few areas here unexplored.

First, the nature of the question. How do we rank AK among the best starting hands. It depends. It depends on game format (limit, deepstackNL, shortstackNL/tourney), it depends on how many hands see flops etc. Why? Because hand values are not absolute. Our hands strength measured by strict equity, or measured by Expected Value, depends on the strength of our opponents cards. If we know our opponent only plays pairs for instance, AK has way more value than 22 does.... Every time we play 22 we are dominated, and only 2/13 times we are dominated with AK.

Second I think people are missing that both hands have a problem post flop when they whiff. Many times you are fold the best hand. bottom underpair unimproved still beats all unpaired hands, which might be a majority of our opponents holding. Same is true of AK. The last poster even suggested that if you dont hit with AK you have nothing... well thats just plain wrong... you have a hand that is the best non-pair hand, and you are OFTEN likely ahead. If you build a big pot at this point, though, you are OFTEN way behind and possibly drawing dead.

The ranking of hands not only depends on their innate preflop strength (equity using things like pokerstove), but also the range of our opponent or opponents, the mixture of hand types they are willing to play, the format of the game we are playing, the size of the stacks involved, how well our opponents play post flop, how good we are at reading hands, etc.

Thus, no real definitive hand ranking guides exist... I think using +EV based on actual play is probably nearly the best. Lets maximize our expectation with each decision.

[Joey2Cards]

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The last poster even suggested that if you dont hit with AK you have nothing... well thats just plain wrong... you have a hand that is the best non-pair hand, and you are OFTEN likely ahead.



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This is precisely the thought process of someone who has trouble playing AK. Not saying that YOU do, but this is why people get carried away with their two pretty little cards.

[4W Cowboy]

I didn't bother to read all the post but if you go by the list most serious poker players use and the one all others are compared to it is made by Sklansky and Malmuth and has AKs as the 5th best hand. Group 1: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs. However I recently read or heard that in holdem its a better stategy to wait until the flop to get to the $$ in because that's when the real odds shift happens, hence the 22 vs. AKs or os. (Obviously) If you flop an A or a K or 4 to a straight or flush the odds shift dramatically.

[insyder19]

AK just plays better.

You can reraise with Ak from any position, you can shove AK because you know it's at least a coin flip unless you are up against AA or KK.

You cannot 3barrel 22 with 4 overcards there.

OF COURSE, if you push all in preflop, than 22 wins more. But we are talking about actually playing it postflop.

After about 300k hands in my pt. AK is the 4th best hand after AA, KK and QQ

[futuredoc85]

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AK just plays better.

You can reraise with Ak from any position, you can shove AK because you know it's at least a coin flip unless you are up against AA or KK.

You cannot 3barrel 22 with 4 overcards there.

OF COURSE, if you push all in preflop, than 22 wins more. But we are talking about actually playing it postflop.

After about 300k hands in my pt. AK is the 4th best hand after AA, KK and QQ

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no it doesnt


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12,585,434,400 games 0.044 secs 286,032,600,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.334% 49.39% 00.95% 6215338932 119416020.00 { 22 }
Hand 1: 49.666% 48.72% 00.95% 6131263428 119416020.00 { random }


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33,561,158,400 games 0.086 secs 390,246,027,906 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 65.751% 64.91% 00.84% 21783519396 283348986.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 34.249% 33.40% 00.84% 11210941032 283348986.00 { random }


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1,232,858,880 games 0.005 secs 246,571,776,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.793% 39.64% 10.15% 488757492 125124288.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 50.207% 40.06% 10.15% 493852812 125124288.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }


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636,977,088 games 0.005 secs 127,395,417,600 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 35.504% 35.21% 00.29% 224290476 1863336.00 { 22 }
Hand 1: 64.496% 64.20% 00.29% 408959940 1863336.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }


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410,952,960 games 0.001 secs 410,952,960,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 31.643% 31.36% 00.29% 128865852 1173954.00 { 22 }
Hand 1: 68.357% 68.07% 00.29% 279739200 1173954.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }


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739,715,328 games 0.005 secs 147,943,065,600 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.540% 24.68% 15.86% 182578824 117305460.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 59.460% 43.60% 15.86% 322525584 117305460.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }


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