Like it? Hate it?

[ikestoys]

Pineapple -

An unknown 100nl is a station. His calling range is wider than his (bluffing+betting for value) range, theres no way around this.

[yapee]

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Futhermore, I'm not saying to bet/bet/bet this hand, in fact, I think the ideal line is bet the flop, c/r this turn. It lets him put more money in on a float/bluff line, maximizes value against hands we have beat, and we have a lot of outs if we are surprisingly behind.

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I like this line in a spot like this. IMHO it gets maximum value of bluffs and worse queens. Of course it also let's us stack to a set, which OP is trying to avoid at all costs as I see it... But still I like it.

And I do think one should bet such flops for consistency if for nothing else, because what would you be trying to represent with a c-bet on this flop if you consistently check your TPTK on it? (That's really an argument against making this a standard line, but doing this one time may still be ok...?)

[Isura]

I prefer to miniraise the flop in these spots (2.5-3x his bet) if you want to go for value. With this line you let him control the pot size too easily on the turn, and miss a lot of value. So unless he is a bluff monkey I wouldn't take this line, and if so then he's probably not folding a Q or JJ either on the river so just put the rest in.

[pineapple888]

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Pineapple -

An unknown 100nl is a station. His calling range is wider than his (bluffing+betting for value) range, theres no way around this.

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OP said he was "taggish".

Just to clarify, this is not a "standard" line by any means. But I use it from time to time.

[markuisis]

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so what ur saying is i missed value from worse queens since tags regularly get stacked with any tp right?

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Again...
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You are relying on him making a wild bluff to gain value in your hand and you are light years ahead of his calling range.

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That calling range is wider than queens. Especially on the flop. It's important to remember that this guy is unknown to you, therefore you are unknown to him. His calling range includes air, middle pairs, draws. People don't fold to flop bets. Theres no way you can say that the villain is so bluffy (since he's unknown) that its more profitable to check this flop than continue.

Futhermore, I'm not saying to bet/bet/bet this hand, in fact, I think the ideal line is bet the flop, c/r this turn. It lets him put more money in on a float/bluff line, maximizes value against hands we have beat, and we have a lot of outs if we are surprisingly behind.

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Also, ike, what do u do when u lead flop and get 3bet? call and c/c a turn expecting "some wild bluff" as u said for his entire stack instead of a portion of it AND against a much stronger line. Or fold tptk on flop to any resistance?

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1.) It's not a 3bet. Count it up, it would be a 2bet.
2.) The probability of him calling is much, much higher than him raising. The reasoning for this is pretty simple. It's because the correct play from his point of view, given his preflop range, would be more often than to call than raise. If he raises the flop, then we deal with it, otherwise we bet for value against his range.

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sry, i was gone and couldnt reply, and im sry i called it a 3bet when in fact its a 2bet. I agree with betting the flop and checking the turn as a viable line, but i think c/raising this turn is hideous for reasons stated above. Obviously i agree his flop calling range is way behind our hand, but do u think that the majority put any more money in? Even the some of strongest hands in his range (tp) r unlikely to call off 3 bullets essentially only beating a bluff but much more likely to bet for value against such a weak line. I dont mind c/c the turn and b/f the river as i dunno how often most ppl bluff 3 bullets or value bet a queen there (which they prob call against my weak line - but not if i had bet all 3 streets), but i think my line works well also. BTW, obviously if he checks the turn im firing the river and IMO im more likely to get the river bet paid off against weak middle pairs then I would be to get a equivalent turn bet paid off. To sum it up, i take this line to keep the pot size decent with a good but not amazing hand (important to realize there r very few if any hands which go to the felt that I beat) and because i think his betting range is wider here than his calling range (it includes a decent amount of bluffs and a decent amount of queens). I gtg though so ill respond if u disagree in the morning.

[Isura]

Yeah c/r the turn is bad IMO. You get him to fold all his bluffs, and only really protect against random pairs that have at most 5 outs. Check/call the turn and make a river decision is so much better.

[markuisis]

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Futhermore, I'm not saying to bet/bet/bet this hand, in fact, I think the ideal line is bet the flop, c/r this turn. It lets him put more money in on a float/bluff line, maximizes value against hands we have beat, and we have a lot of outs if we are surprisingly behind.

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I like this line in a spot like this. IMHO it gets maximum value of bluffs and worse queens. Of course it also let's us stack to a set, which OP is trying to avoid at all costs as I see it... But still I like it.

And I do think one should bet such flops for consistency if for nothing else, because what would you be trying to represent with a c-bet on this flop if you consistently check your TPTK on it? (That's really an argument against making this a standard line, but doing this one time may still be ok...?)

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ya i agree with this obviously being transparent if used frequently since im betting all my air here and almost always my middle pairs without reads on his bluffing frequency. Thats y i think that betting the flop, c/c the turn and river or if turn is checked through betting most rivers is a very appealing line also. u guys agree that c/raising the turn is really gross against competent players right? k bye.

[ikestoys]

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Yeah c/r the turn is bad IMO. You get him to fold all his bluffs, and only really protect against random pairs that have at most 5 outs. Check/call the turn and make a river decision is so much better.

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duc we have a flush draw?

[Isura]

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Yeah c/r the turn is bad IMO. You get him to fold all his bluffs, and only really protect against random pairs that have at most 5 outs. Check/call the turn and make a river decision is so much better.

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duc we have a flush draw?

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Yeah. Doesn't that make raising turn worse?