25NL JJ faces donkbet

[SMACK BOOTY]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold with my tail between my legs

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad to see others think folding here is OK. Lately with all of these " I poooosh" threads being posted, it seems like I'm turning too weak tight in my old age. I've been stacked so many times with TPTK or overpair that I'm getting real cautious about these situations, particularly online. As others have noted, the only real draw is an OESD, and villian would have had to call a raise with crappy hand OOP.
I agree with you, if you make a decent raise, you are pot commited, so now is the time plan the hand. I hate calling because if an A, K, or Q comes and there is action, then you will have a really funny look on your face.
To summarize, IMO, WITHOUT READS, I think
FOLDING>RAISING>CALLING.

[Johnes Benjamin]

A lot of times I am folding here.
I think calling isn't a bad option either though. You still have position and I would not right off the bat be afraid of overs.
I don't agree with checking the turn though, which someone suggested. I think if turn is checked to you, especially if its HU, I would bet it and determine once and for all where you stand. If AT fired flop he could easily call turn for 2/3 pot bet, people are pretty bad sometimes.
I would even make a thin value bet on the river sometimes if checked to, depending on texture of the board.

[ActionStan]

The "if nothing else" really is the worst case scenario. But really, you're ahead here a lot. Not all the time for sure, but a lot. I think it's too early to give it up.

If an over card drops and the villain continues betting, I think it is a pretty clear fold. You really don't beat much.

I think if the villain pots it again on the turn on a blank, it's a pretty clear fold unless you know the villain is a maniac, in which case you just get the rest of the money in.

Mostly, I think you check behind on the turn and call the villains bet on the river unless an A or T dropped. You have plenty of hand to play a small to mid sized pot and using your position will let you get there. Occasionally you will find QQ or a set, but you will have the best hand often enough to make money over time.

[ActionStan]

[ QUOTE ]

This is ugly. After raising the flop, he mostly folds these Tx, shoves sets blablabla. Its sucks.


[/ QUOTE ]

It clears out weird hands with strange draws that might call (correctly) as the pot bloats.

It keeps you in command of the table and coerces your opponents into only betting when they have a hand. (This is really good for you).

I demonstrates to your opponents that if they take stabs at pots they are going to have to put chips in the middle.

All of these are good things.

Sometimes you put too many chips into a growing pot and have to fold.

Not as good.

That said, I think the call line can be very good too.

[swainy]

personally, i think it is too early to fold... you do not have enough information to suggest your are beaten. a lot of players not only donk bet sets, but also TP and MP.
its a dry board, so call is fine, see what happens after you and see what happens on the turn. if there is serious action after u then fold.
A 2/3 bet on the turn tho from the villain is not going to make me fold either.. i might wait until river action unless i had clear reads on this opp.
If he checks turn im betting the pot.

mainly tho, i feel a donk bet is not nearly enough to make me fold my overpair, even if it is a multiway pot.

[ActionStan]

[ QUOTE ]

If he checks turn im betting the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

What's your reasoning here?

[RapidEvolution]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is ugly. After raising the flop, he mostly folds these Tx, shoves sets blablabla. Its sucks.


[/ QUOTE ]

It clears out weird hands with strange draws that might call (correctly) as the pot bloats.

It keeps you in command of the table and coerces your opponents into only betting when they have a hand. (This is really good for you).

I demonstrates to your opponents that if they take stabs at pots they are going to have to put chips in the middle.

All of these are good things.

Sometimes you put too many chips into a growing pot and have to fold.

Not as good.

That said, I think the call line can be very good too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point1: Totally agreed there. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Point2: LOL I really need to keep things like this in mind. I have had sessions where I pushed a semi-bluff draw and afterwards, (whether I hit the draw or missed) got all my hands paid off because people thought I would raise/reraise anything. (Never mind that I play 12/10) Again, agreed.

Point3: 100% agreed there too...this is very useful along with point 2 in completely decimating a table. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Point4 Ya know, at a table where I didn't just have my preflop raise called by 4 people I might min-raise here and be able to get out if he shoved. The 13 people behind me in the pot kinda take that option off the table, though.

Anyway, I folded here and UTG called. Villain had 66FTW (this made me sick) and UTG had A3 (Lord knows what he was doing in there at all).

BTW, I hadn't even put AT in villain's range. (duh) I gotta remember that people will donk TPTK at 25NL. *sigh*

[ActionStan]

These sorts of issues are always interesting to me. Those of us old guys who don't multitable all that well and play live more are much more aware of table dynamics, I think. More of our game is based on that. Thinking about how to manipulate your opponent can be a huge edge. I've watched a few of those card runners videos and that is much of what they think about.

Look at this hand and read the comments from durr and strassa2. It's all about the manipulation and gets even more so when you get deep and big:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rt=all&vc=1

(I love this hand)

[Steelerman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is ugly. After raising the flop, he mostly folds these Tx, shoves sets blablabla. Its sucks.


[/ QUOTE ]

It clears out weird hands with strange draws that might call (correctly) as the pot bloats.

It keeps you in command of the table and coerces your opponents into only betting when they have a hand. (This is really good for you).

I demonstrates to your opponents that if they take stabs at pots they are going to have to put chips in the middle.

All of these are good things.

Sometimes you put too many chips into a growing pot and have to fold.

Not as good.

That said, I think the call line can be very good too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point1: Totally agreed there. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Point2: LOL I really need to keep things like this in mind. I have had sessions where I pushed a semi-bluff draw and afterwards, (whether I hit the draw or missed) got all my hands paid off because people thought I would raise/reraise anything. (Never mind that I play 12/10) Again, agreed.

Point3: 100% agreed there too...this is very useful along with point 2 in completely decimating a table. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Point4 Ya know, at a table where I didn't just have my preflop raise called by 4 people I might min-raise here and be able to get out if he shoved. The 13 people behind me in the pot kinda take that option off the table, though.

Anyway, I folded here and UTG called. Villain had 66FTW (this made me sick) and UTG had A3 (Lord knows what he was doing in there at all).

BTW, I hadn't even put AT in villain's range. (duh) I gotta remember that people will donk TPTK at 25NL. *sigh*

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious as to whether villain followed through on the turn with a bet?

[RapidEvolution]

UTG shoved over with about .80 left and villain called.