Ever +EV to fold KK in a cash game?

[tarheeljks]

the times where you could feasibly fold KK pf involve deep stacks, strong reads and/or history w/the villain. saying "i had a read" is not a legit reason; even w/a strong read, stack sizes will often make a call profitable.

[greggg230]

folding any hand is never profitable

when's the last time you won a pot by folding?

[geo8o2]

somebody did the math awhile back. something like 3.5 buyins? then u can fold it supposedly.

[pzhon]

Here are a couple of threads in the archives from MHNL where the consensus was that it was not only right to fold KK preflop, but that these were clear folds, not close decisions.

200BB move of honor in MP after hero limps UTG with KK

Weak-tight player with 100 BB 4-bets all in
I don't think this would not be an easy fold in many NL $1000 games, even with those statistics, since the first raise was on the button. However, I agree with the fold in the Party NL $1000 games of that time.

There was another thread where El Diablo didn't fold KK after someone minreraised twice, but IIRC the consensus was that he clearly should have.

Again, I'd go even farther, and say that there are times when you get enough information to fold KK preflop even without a read or very deep stacks or reraises from multiple players or ridiculous lines like the double minraise.

[El_Hombre_Grande]

In the end, the math is such that math really doesn't dominate the decision. Its almost always a very situational read that you feel you can narrow their range to almost that one hand. Either by betting pattern....(big raise---big re-raise.. third player all in with deep stacks) or a very tight player who come way over the top. I play live from time to time with a woman who is tighter than broomcorn's uncle and she perceives me as tight pre-flop. In the past I have seen her smoothcall in this situation with QQ. I assume with her worldview this means she considers AKs not much of a hand. Twice with big stacks she has come way over the top of a raise, and twice in my life I have folded kings preflop. She was kind enough to show the aces both times. (I didn't tell her about the Kings. I claimed a middling holding both times --Aj)

Online, I can't do it. I play small-mid and too many players will put in huge re-raises with both AK and QQ and sometimes even AQ, in addition to the ocassional slappy who sits for 15 hands and tries a move with any two. I suppose if I had a good enough read to narrow it and the stacks were big enough......but getting that precise of a read on line is more difficult.

[OnTheRize]

[ QUOTE ]
Here are a couple of threads in the archives from MHNL where the consensus was that it was not only right to fold KK preflop, but that these were clear folds, not close decisions.

200BB move of honor in MP after hero limps UTG with KK

Weak-tight player with 100 BB 4-bets all in
I don't think this would not be an easy fold in many NL $1000 games, even with those statistics, since the first raise was on the button. However, I agree with the fold in the Party NL $1000 games of that time.

There was another thread where El Diablo didn't fold KK after someone minreraised twice, but IIRC the consensus was that he clearly should have.

Again, I'd go even farther, and say that there are times when you get enough information to fold KK preflop even without a read or very deep stacks or reraises from multiple players or ridiculous lines like the double minraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just said in my last post, the situation's are very rare. Pushing outright ( in that case, 5K$ into a 55$ pot ) is about the only reason to do so. It's also as retarded a move as ive ever seen with AA.

[The 13th 4postle]

Sklansky has a whole section on this on Sklansky's Tounament Poker, which is really good. Though it is for tournaments the concept remains the same if there are two or more reraises when you have raised significantly you have a huge problem. Since I play at such low stakes I'll call 100% of the time.

I think EV over time will prove that you shouldn't fold it. Ultimately, depends if you can handle the loss. Sometimes making the amazing fold will only prove embarrassing.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
I just said in my last post, the situation's are very rare.

[/ QUOTE ]
Earlier you even went through the trouble of putting "never fold kings preflop" in bold. Now you admit that it can be right. It seems like your statements are not reliable. Maybe you should think it through before insulting anyone who disagrees with whatever you believe at the moment, and maybe you should apologize when you realize that you have insulted someone for being correct and informative.

[OnTheRize]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just said in my last post, the situation's are very rare.

[/ QUOTE ]
Earlier you even went through the trouble of putting "never fold kings preflop" in bold. Now you admit that it can be right. It seems like your statements are not reliable. Maybe you should think it through before insulting anyone who disagrees with whatever you believe at the moment, and maybe you should apologize when you realize that you have insulted someone for being correct and informative.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well im sorry that you play with people so retarded that they push 5,000$ into a 60$ pot. Clearly im not playing KK in this situation.

[jay_shark]

Ontherize , just give it up .

You should never say never in poker , and so if you think it's "always" correct to call with pocket kings , then maybe you read the wrong poker books .