100NL What are good hands to 4bet with?

[dragonystic]

17:1 !!! really?

[Speedlimits]

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44 is an ugly hand to 4bet with imo.

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?????

44 has better equity than any other 'trash' hand here by far.

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Yeah that is what I thought too. It seems like small pckt pairs are good 4bet candidates because at worst your a 4:1 dog and sometimes they will push AK (that's what this guy did).

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but then the obv. problem is you are either flipping vs AK and maybe AQs... or you are crushed vs a bigger pocket pair and making a big error given pot odds

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We have odds to call with 44 vs like any reasonable range unless we make a retardedly small 4bet.

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you pop to $44 villain pushes it's $56 to you giving you 38% equity needed so, no you are not getting odds vs bigger pocket pairs (you'ew only about 18% vs bigger pockets)

i'm not talking about his entire range, i'm saying that you are either flipping (which means you made the correct play, but not by a landslide) or you are crushed

so it's a slightly ahead way behind situation

which means you shouldn't 4 bet 44 light, since you are forced to call his shove knowing that your are either flipping or crushed

where as you can fold junk since you're always crushed or you can call w/ big pairs since you sometimes crush, so you should 4 bet w/ monsters or air

not sure if that made sense

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your equity is off. $56 into a $200 pot is like 28%

[Jay Riall]

Yeah Keik - you forgot to add 1 (I'm serious).

[orange]

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Orange - I was working under the assumption that we almost never see villain stick it in after we 4bet without like TT+, AJ at the very loosest. I don't know what the games at FT/stars are like but I highly doubt 22 is any different than 99 in like 99% of these situations vs TAGs.

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you're right against this opponent.i wouldnt get it in with any of these hands vs. this guy. on stars, there are alot of looser players (tags included) that will get it in with like...77/ATs/etc very easy.

[Jay Riall]

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on stars, there are alot of looser players (tags included) that will get it in with like...77/ATs/etc very easy.

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lol at all you Americans who cry and say we have it soo much easier on Party then.

[Speedlimits]

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on stars, there are alot of looser players (tags included) that will get it in with like...77/ATs/etc very easy.

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lol at all you Americans who cry and say we have it soo much easier on Party then.

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haha i think party is only slightly easier than ft/pstars but thats just from word of mouth.

[orange]

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on stars, there are alot of looser players (tags included) that will get it in with like...77/ATs/etc very easy.

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lol at all you Americans who cry and say we have it soo much easier on Party then.

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yeah, they get it in lighter, but i'm fairly sure they are helluva lot more aggro than most players on party. the variance is fairly high. i think i'd rather play vs. std tag players than laggomaniacs/laggy tags.

[AP81]

If you're going to 4bet, make it small or shove. There really is no purpose for raising like half your stack. You're obviously calling a shove, you might as well just shove to maximize fold equity or make it a small amount that gives the illusion you might fold to a shove but at the same time you give yourself good odds on a 4bet bluff. I'd make it $30 here and fold to a push if I did this.

[AP81]

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on stars, there are alot of looser players (tags included) that will get it in with like...77/ATs/etc very easy.

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lol at all you Americans who cry and say we have it soo much easier on Party then.

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yeah, they get it in lighter, but i'm fairly sure they are helluva lot more aggro than most players on party. the variance is fairly high. i think i'd rather play vs. std tag players than laggomaniacs/laggy tags.

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Probably at $200nl, but this isn't the case in MSNL.

[Speedlimits]

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If you're going to 4bet, make it small or shove. There really is no purpose for raising like half your stack. You're obviously calling a shove, you might as well just shove to maximize fold equity or make it a small amount that gives the illusion you might fold to a shove but at the same time you give yourself good odds on a 4bet bluff. I'd make it $30 here and fold to a push if I did this.

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So would you make your air/premiums like $30 and hands like this just shove over his 3bet?

I guess basically what I'm asking is why turn a hand that has decent equity (small pocket pair) into a bluff? Why not raise an amount that commits me or shove. And if you agree with me on that concept then what hands should I be 4betting to $30 with?