JTo otb in straddled hand

[chesspain]

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No. Even though its a straddle, it IS a raise. Don't fool yourself into thinking this is equivalent to a limp.

b

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Are you really suggesting that he fold JTo from the button after a straddle and a gaggle of limps?

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You mean a gaggle of coldcalls.

I would.

b

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I guess we disagree on the importance of the fact the everyone is putting in two bets ahead of us. If it is the kind of table where people are regularly limping with crap, then I automatically overlimp on the Button with JTo for one bet (and I assume you would also).

Consequently, although I agree that putting in two bets vs. one cuts into our implied odds somewhat, if I can't assume that everyones' hands are better than usual just because they are calling a straddle, then I would probably play this hand on the Button for two.

Of course, the fact that the OP specifically mentioned that the straddlers had been raising light would probably cause me to intially dump this hand. Otherwise, however, I have no problem playing this for two bets.

[Buzz-cp]

I would consider a straddle with no callers to be an iso situation vs a maniac. So I would reraise with a range of like 66+, A9+, KTs+, KJ+, or maybe looser. With several callers we are talking about a multiway pot and JT is standard for this. Nice hand.

Buzz

[bernie]

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I guess we disagree on the importance of the fact the everyone is putting in two bets ahead of us.

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Then would you put in 4 bets with JTo against this same group postflop if you knew they were playing crap also? How about if all these players were playing blind all the way to the river?

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If it is the kind of table where people are regularly limping with crap, then I automatically overlimp on the Button with JTo for one bet (and I assume you would also).

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Yes. But this is a different situation. You're getting in cheaper and your implieds are much better.

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if I can't assume that everyones' hands are better than usual just because they are calling a straddle, then I would probably play this hand on the Button for two.

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Again, what if you can assume this going into capped pots?

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the fact that the OP specifically mentioned that the straddlers had been raising light would probably cause me to intially dump this hand. Otherwise, however, I have no problem playing this for two bets.

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So if they were raising tight you'd be more likely to see the flop with JTo?

b

[Befolder]

This is far from a fold in this game. Easy call.

[Befolder]

With the straddle on, it's not really calling two bets, it has effectively made the betting just double for this first call. I'd say it IS more like limping along especially since the straddle isn't a raise, it's just a stakes increase.

In fact a raise from the BB only adds 1/2 a small bet if you think about it in relative terms.

On implied odds, live games are far less susceptible to the "reducing your implied odds" theory. Idiots call nearly as much in a raised pot than they do in an unraised one.

[Fnord]

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it's just a stakes increase.

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...except that the post-flop betting amounts don't increase.

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On implied odds, live games are far less susceptible to the "reducing your implied odds" theory. Idiots call nearly as much in a raised pot than they do in an unraised one.

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It takes away your ability to make any sort of fold. You're committed to drawing to pretty much anything and showing down a wide range as well. How exactly are you outplaying anyone with those constraints?

[Scarmiglio]

JTo is an above average hand. Calling a straddle is not the same as calling a raise. You have position. I would call. On the other hand, if BB looked like he was going to raise, and the player who straddled had been 3-betting/capping with all kinds of stuff, I would probably fold. I definitely don't want to play this hand for $16 if I can help it.

[johnb]

I see your point about the implied odds and honestly I missed the part of the post where he indicates that the straddler caps. However, I still call. My experience is that players will raise a little looser in hands like this 'to build a pot.' I still call. 8-1 odds are enough in my book to play a hand like this especially if I feel I can outplay most my opponents after the flop. JB

[Fnord]

Running this in Pokerstove against 7 & 8 top 75% hands, we actually have a slight equity edge.

So it comes down to:
o How bad are the reverse implied odds of playing this out?
o How much is the button worth for min/maxing?
o Are terrible opponents making enough terrible mistakes in a pot so big that their loose behavior isn't punished?

I'm inclined to say that at worst this spot is GAMB00L yet there might be an edge here. That said, it's well known how to destroy these games for a sick win-rate and you don't have to play this hand to do that.

[bernie]

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Calling a straddle is not the same as calling a raise.

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Odds-wise, it is.

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JTo is an above average hand.

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It's also not a hand I'm taking to the flop in a wild game.

b