Holdem is dying/read article

[tpir]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As the ME declines and the 50k HORSE increases, I like my chances.

[/ QUOTE ]
Has it occurred to you that the ME's decline was a) a "streak" of one year and b) largely related to online qualifying being way down in numbers?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, just think of how much bigger the 50k HORSE would have been if online qualifying was up to last years standards. The fact the that 50k went up while the ME went down is a start in the direction that I am speaking about.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree 100% that the HORSE event will get bigger and that the ME will probably not be able to sustain it's recent growth rate. Just saying that none of this information necessarily means that holdem is dying... yet.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]

I agree 100% that the HORSE event will get bigger and that the ME will probably not be able to sustain it's recent growth rate. Just saying that none of this information necessarily means that holdem is dying... yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the point of my article. The swing is to mix games, and you are agreeing with me here.

[SirFelixCat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fossilman is a mixed game specialist

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that an oxymoron?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes and no. He is well balanced between the games he plays, think of him as a junior big-gamer player (Ive seen him play from 100/200 up to 300/600, anyone know if he plays bigger?) whose edge is by playing all the games in the mix fairly well when most players in these games are usually only good at one or two of the games. Don't get me wrong, he has his weak spots like we all do... but he is fairly well balanced between the games which gives him a slight edge in mixed format.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to name drop or anything of the ilk, but I got Greg to sit with us SSNL grinders for about 2 hours, early in June at the Rio...we had an open seat and he was waiting for a 100/200 B/T seat and my 2/5 NL table was right next to the high limit area and I said, "Sup bro...hey Greg, we have a seat open, at least you'll be in action..." He said to deal him in and during the 2 hours or so, I asked him about this, as he was taking our little 2/5 $500 NL game seriously.

He basically said that he plays in the 100/200 - 300/600 range and that he really only plays mixed games and really isn't a big NLHE fan. He mentioned another strange game that I'd never heard of (I forget the name, but it was basically 5CD, NL, but worst hand wins).

So make a short story long, that's the range he normally plays in. Just wanted to validate my answer and not be joe nobody answering [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[HOWMANY]

[ QUOTE ]
He mentioned another strange game that I'd never heard of (I forget the name, but it was basically 5CD, NL, but worst hand wins).


[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's something with King or Knight in the title. I recall something about some sort of game like this in the chat of a 30/60 2-7 game I was watching to see if I wanted to play with Raymer and a bunch of unknowns that turned out not to be as awful as I hoped.

[VanVeen]

big bet stud where the last two cards are dealt at the same time ("mississippi"?) is a badass game.

hopefully mixed big bet games with an ante take off. very high variance, you don't have to (can't) play as tight, and good players still have a significant (but mercurial) edge.

perhaps a stupid question, but why aren't nl games w/antes being spread online? it opens the game up tremendously. heck, it should be the default for deep-stacked nlhe.

[6471849653]

The reason why the "death" of nl-holdem is not seen yet is that it's the most popular poker form and getting more popular and the major fish is found from nl-holdem these days rather than from limit holdem (I actually stopped playing limit holdem today when I finally saw the whole picture; I played it eight years online).

Stud has been tight a long time as it has been populated by the old timers and decent to good players, and not by the fish, and that same thing has happened to enough degree at limit holdem just now, though not that it's the only problem about limit holdem, there being lots of reasons why I stopped playing it.

PLO is not so popular; there are only some sites where there is enough action at higher low limits or at medium limits. And PLO has the problem with fluctuations that one can do nothing about but to warn about it, and what comes to fish, he gets additionally dropped out by those fluctuations. It's also not a TV game and harder to read the cards and the board (I am not sure I want to play a game where the opponents can do that, though I will still keep practising it); not really a fish game though there is still plenty at low limits while at the high limits it seemed the fulltilt pros are more interested about playing PLO than NLH, so there is something to it but I don't think it's the money as the facts show nl-holdem to be still at least as profitable at that level, though some play it because it's the weaker game of many. The PLO fluctuations are so much that it possibly can't even be played above fish levels.

There's just no game other than nl-holdem that's popular and good enough in every way currently (though many US-sites are tight and tough these days - I only do my practise there - but when online poker becomes basically fully legal in the US again, the games are likely getting better, though many sites are still open for the US players so I am not sure what is driving the fish out or are all the good US players filling them too much) and there's no way to see anything but nl-holdem at this time though some sites have enough PLO action, actually the sites that allow US-players, that seem to be more interested about it than the European players though it's the other big bet poker game here in every casino.

No other forms are worth mentioning, other than the mix games but they are as limit forms and it's figured they contain basically more experienced players. Big bet poker will remain the most popular and even if it enters the mixed games it will be nl-holdem and PLO and in the future just maybe 5-stud where 4-straights and 4-flushes beat one pair.

The only way NL-holdem is getting dead is if the games are getting increasingly tough. But it's more likely they are just more tight these days, but it's not what is going to do well enough at nl-holdem, that's one reason why I don't play its limit form anymore. There's more to nl-holdem than there is to limit holdem, and one does not learn nl-holdem as well from the books as one can learn limit holdem.

[tpir]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I agree 100% that the HORSE event will get bigger and that the ME will probably not be able to sustain it's recent growth rate. Just saying that none of this information necessarily means that holdem is dying... yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the point of my article. The swing is to mix games, and you are agreeing with me here.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, the point is that you have very weak evidence to support your claim.

[*TT*]

All - I don't know how this happened, but this thread (and my post) has turned into one big plug for Joe Tall's site Deuces Cracked. Joe, Death Donkey and Entity host videos of themselves (and sometimes others as they coach) playing hold'em as well as other games including HORSE. Future ballas should check this out if they are interested in moving over to a mixed games/other games format as their game grows.

[Oki-Oki]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No limit betting is sexy. Limit betting is boring. It's ridiculous to think that we're just a few years away from the $50k HORSE's prize pool eclipsing that of the Main Event.

[/ QUOTE ]
So mayby big bet rotation games will be the new thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

These were pretty popular in Europe a few years ago not sure what its like now

[Oki-Oki]

Also I think using the downturn in ME entries to justify that NL holdem is dying is laughable.

The main event this year still attracted 6000+ entrants, without 3rd party registration. If anything this shows that NL is still growing.

Think about how many ppl won seats online got the 10 or 12k cash deposited into their account and didnt go. When in the past they had no choice but to make the trip to vegas or they recieved nothing.

Also to say that the 50k horse event prize pool will soon be greater than the main event is rediculous. You realise to do this that you would need a minimum of 800 entrants with the main event entries falling to below 4k. I honestly dont see this happening infact imo its pretty far fetched to believe so.