Weighty issue I feel powerless to handle (Longest Post Ever OMG)

[Humble Pie]

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Why would this be the case? Female genital mutilation is a long-standing tradition in some cultures; must we respect this practice? Do they have the girls' best interests in mind?
I've never understood this point of view at all. Why should I respect or tolerate a de facto forced arranged marriage? How different is that from rape?

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Let me just clear something up before you take this a little too far Ben. By respect I mean; empathize/see the situation from their cultural veiwpoint.

Now, I'm not really sure what cultures you speak of regarding female genital mutilation, but my guess would be that in some round-about way the practice originated for the benefit of that particular society (which would ultimately benefit the woman.) Obviously I'm not condoning anything here but it's interesting that your first response seems to be to lash-out/reject something that you don't understand. BTW have you ever thought about western/christian cultures obsession w/ male genital mutilation? What is the benefit for this (in the 21st century)?

[uclaben]

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Now, I'm not really sure what cultures you speak of regarding female genital mutilation, but my guess would be that in some round-about way the practice originated for the benefit of that particular society (which would ultimately benefit the woman.) Obviously I'm not condoning anything here but it's interesting that your first response seems to be to lash-out/reject something that you don't understand. BTW have you ever thought about western/christian cultures obsession w/ male genital mutilation? What is the benefit for this (in the 21st century)?

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This is an astounding point of view. Was slavery, in "some round-about way," for the good of the society? And if so, did it "ultimately benefit the slaves?"

I find it incredibly hypocritical that you accuse me of lashing out at something I don't understand, when in the very last sentence you admitted that you don't know anything about female genital mutilation. Maybe if you took five minutes to educate yourself, you'd find that the practice has no value for the community - oddly enough, it's completely for the benefit, perceived or genuine, of the men in the tribe. Jeez, who would have thought? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

And yes, I have thought about male circumcision. There appears to be little to no benefit stemming from this practice at this point, but it is a FAR less barbaric and damaging act than female genital mutilation. That doesn't make it OK, necessarily, but the two are not comparable.

[MicroBob]

Hitler and other Nazis thought they were doing some awesome things for society in their efforts to get rid of as many jews as they could.

Just because they have their reasoning or logic and they can clearly explain that they really do have a purpose does not mean I have to respect their opinion.
I'm not going to sit there and say, "I don't agree with your opinion. But I respect your group's desire to burn as many non-Christians as you can find."


Besides, others are pointing out that this woman seems to be pretty extreme even by the standards of her own society.

[Humble Pie]

I think you're really missing the point here.... Private Joker wants help. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Also to answer your question directly eventhough it has NOTHING to do with my point or OP question I do feel that female genital mutilation (Type I)was originally intended to be in the best interest of the woman. Obviously we can dig up a million practices that are fundamentally flawed, but in regards to OPs culture clash I feel that there needs to be some empathy for eastern societal views and practices.

[Jon1000]

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I understand why a person might be OK with an arranged, i.e. forced marriage. I see that there are benefits, as you mentioned, in terms of stability, etc. I simply value human freedom - for women, no less! - over this particular notion of community. After all, other practices have worked well in the context of community stability - slavery, for example. If you (not really you, per se) disagree with me, that's your right, and it's my right to think that you're (I stress not actually you) an unethical douchebag.

I can see where someone is coming from and still think what they're doing is wrong. I understand why people flew planes into skyscrapers - to a certain extent, at least - and I find their reasoning utterly unacceptable. As for religion, that's pretty complicated, and should probably be addressed in a different thread. I will say this, though: I don't believe that all faiths are "created equal." Fundamentalist Christianity, for example, is more or less morally inferior in my eyes when compared to the American Episcopal Church. Note that I don't practice either.

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In this instance, I would contend that if you have no strong ties to a specific faith, that religion is more analogous to arranged marriage than is female genital mutilation, especially given the history of the primacy of the Chinese family unit. Similarly, slavery's social utility does not seem to fit the circumstances particularly well, but I didn't really want to have that conversation. I was just put off by how dismissive some responses were without any attempt to address cultural and generational differences and the possible reasons for validity or for invalidity of an opposing viewpoint. You don't seem to fall under this category, but yours was the last post in the thread of this flavor at the time I originally replied.

I guess my feeling is that the situation seems more complicated than, "While I have incredibly limited experience with many Asian cultures outside of some friends or an undergraduate course, I can confidently say [censored] you to thousands of years of a practice with some glaringly obvious practical applications while I myself live in a country with a 50% divorce rate." That last bit was more of a rant than a personal belief, as China's divorce rate is probably greatly effected by social stigma and certainly doesn't necessarily signify equally fulfilling marriages, relationships, partnerships, what have you.

Has anybody asked yet whether or not May's parents met through arranged marriage? Are they happy? Also, if May did feel as though she would be happy in an arranged marriage, would this seem more acceptable? How about if the arranged marriage was to a childhood friend who was 28? How bout the presumptuousness of a month long boyfriend asking her to turn her back on her parents after giving them an ultimatum (not that OP did this last one, but from the tone of some posts, it is what some advocate)

i'm in the help her to start a real, awkward, gut wrenching dialogue with momma may camp. and help her stick it out and don't be surprised if the folks resent you.

[private joker]

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have you really only been together for a month? i didn't notice if that was answered in this thread.

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No, that was an assumption made by another poster who saw that my gf has been spending 3-4 nights/week at my place for the past month. Doesn't mean we've only been together for a month; that's just how long she's had her toothbrush, soap, hair products, earrings, cell phone charger, and instant coffee packets in my apartment.

[private joker]

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Has anybody asked yet whether or not May's parents met through arranged marriage? Are they happy?

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OK, here's the story of her parents:

Dad met the love of his life in his 20s, married her, and had two sons whom he loved. Then, in the 1940s, he fought for Chang Kai Shek and the Nationalist Party against Mao and the Communists. As we all know, Mao won the war in 1949, and many Nationalists were imprisoned. Dad was one of those. He was sent to prison -- for 20 years. His wife took the two sons and moved. Upon his release from prison in 1969, at the age of, like 45, he was lost and alone. It took him another 5 years to find his wife and sons, who had since found another family.

Dad was left abandoned, and shacked up with a devout Catholic woman -- Mom -- who was 15 years younger, but still around 35 and desperate to get married. Dad didn't love Mom, but beggars can't be choosers. They had one child together in May of 1980, a beautiful baby girl. But they sent her to live with her grandmother for 5 years. Then Mom wanted to leave China behind, so the family moved to Los Angeles in 1991. Dad was able to bring his now-adult son from his previous marriage to America with him, and that son was now helping to raise his half-sister -- who was almost 30 years younger than him.

Meanwhile, Dad still never loved Mom, and as little "May" was growing up, he saw in her face the face of his shrewish wife, and got depressed. He hated America. He didn't love his wife or daughter. He only loved his sons and the ex-wife who left him when he was sent to prison... and she was back in China. He yearned to go back to China but his sense of duty to his second family kept him in L.A. where he keeps to himself and barely speaks to his daughter for fear of having to face a younger version of his wife (however, if he only really got to know May, he'd see she's only like her mother in physical features; not in personality).

That leaves May, almost 30 years younger than her brother, over 50 years younger than her father, and the same age as her own niece, whom she refers to as her cousin because of the age similarity. She has nothing in common with her zealot Catholic mother, has virtually no relationship with her father, yet has basically resigned herself to the fact that these are the parents she is stuck with, and will honor and obey them until they die, no matter what kind of people they are. Because, I guess, beggars can't be choosers.

So -- does Dad believe in happy marriages? Yes, he had one, but war and imprisonment ruined it. Is he happy now? No. Does Mom believe in happy marriages? No -- she's never been loved by any man; so love is a luxury most people can't afford. To want it is to be selfish and flighty. The most you can ask for is to be taken care of financially. And you'd better like it.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

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have you really only been together for a month? i didn't notice if that was answered in this thread.

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No, that was an assumption made by another poster who saw that my gf has been spending 3-4 nights/week at my place for the past month. Doesn't mean we've only been together for a month; that's just how long she's had her toothbrush, soap, hair products, earrings, cell phone charger, and instant coffee packets in my apartment.

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would you mind sharing how long you have been with her for? hate to keep harping on it, but it's a really relevant fact here.

big difference between a couple months and 2 years, for instance.

[Los Feliz Slim]

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instant coffee packets

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Jeez, Zach, get the woman some real damn coffee. THAT'S what this is obviously about.

[Shajen]

She turned 27 a month ago.

Time for her to make her own decisions. Seriously. She isn't 16. She's leading her own life. From her mother's perspective, she's trying (albeit very wrongly, imo) to do the best for her daughter. There does reach a point though where all you can do is let your kids make their own way. Sounds like this woman has a very hard time doing that.