Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight

[MicroBob]

Myturn - nice post.

Sounds somewhat similar to the former situation at Miami in which it was a white guy dressed up in authentic costume doing a real Miami dance. Not nearly as crowd unifying as it sounds at Illinois though.
But it was a tradition there.

When the Miami tribe took a new vote and decided to rescind their original approval of the Chief Miami and the dance and the nickname 'Redskins' somehow denoting bravery, etc...the university took immediate action and looked into changing the name.
They basically said that as long as the tribe approves it they have no problem in continuing to honor them in such a way.
And they held true to their word when the tribe changed their mind.


Obviously 'Redskins' could be considered to be a far more racist term than many of the other indian mascots though.

I remember travelling to a couple of hockey road-trips in the early 90's and there were protestors outside the arena with signs like "Go Home White-Skins" and stuff like that.

This was when it was even more of a hot-button issue imo.

[AngusThermopyle]

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I would like the decedents of the Illini tribe to be more vocal instead of letting the NCAA do all the talking on there behalf.

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From Wiki:

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Ron Froman was later elected Chief, by which time his views on the Chief Illiniwek symbol had changed. His opinions shifted following meetings with American Indian students attending the University. In April 2000, the tribal council, with Chief Froman's support, passed by the margin of 3 to 2 a resolution requesting "the leadership of the University of Illinois to recognize the demeaning nature of the characterization of Chief Illiniwek, and cease use of this mascots [sic]". Froman stated "I don't know what the origination was, or what the reason was for the university to create Chief Illiniwek. I don't think it was to honor us, because, hell, they ran our (butts) out of Illinois." This puts Chief Illiniwek in a position different from that of the mascots of other schools such as Florida State University, whose Native American mascots are not opposed by the leadership of the corresponding tribes. In 2005, a new Chief, John P. Froman, when asked his position by the NCAA, indicated that "the Chief was not representative of our tribe and culture, mainly because the costume is Sioux." In 2006, in response to a widely published column by journalist George Will in support of the symbol's use, he wrote a letter reiterating the Peoria Tribe's opposition to the symbol and decrying that the "University of Illinois has ignored the tribe’s request for nearly five years."

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Vocal enough?
They asked the University to stop in April 2001, and the school ignored them.
Only when the NCAA was going to hit them in the pocketbook (cannot host NCAA playoff games, etc) did the school listen.

[IlliniLou]

yeah i realize its the school fault, i meant that i want the tribe to tell us how we can honor them. obviously there are the people at the university who just ignored them but if they tell a student ran organization, then they would follow it

[cardsharkk04]

3-2? Can you say sample size?

[mattsey9]

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yeah i realize its the school fault, i meant that i want the tribe to tell us how we can honor them. obviously there are the people at the university who just ignored them but if they tell a student ran organization, then they would follow it

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What the Peoria are saying is that they don't wish to be "honored" by the University of Illinois. To me, that is all that need be said.

[savageorc]

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Even the Sioux have asked that the costume be returned.

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It wasn't a gift. The university PURCHASED the costume. Asking for the costume back was a political move only.

[Clarkmeister]

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yeah i realize its the school fault, i meant that i want the tribe to tell us how we can honor them. obviously there are the people at the university who just ignored them but if they tell a student ran organization, then they would follow it

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What the Peoria are saying is that they don't wish to be "honored" by the University of Illinois. To me, that is all that need be said.

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Too bad that its not about the Peoria tribe. Lots of problems with that wiki writeup, but it's really not worth getting into.

[AngusThermopyle]

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Too bad that its not about the Peoria tribe.

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Right. It's about money. Indians object, the University is deaf. The NCAA tells you that you can't host playoff games, you listen.

[ChromePony]

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alright, I unfortunately know way too much about this whole 'debate'

This thing has raged every since the late 80s and is a taboo topic to bring up in polite conversation--like abortion, politics, religion

here are the bad and the good about the chief

The Bad:

-It's a white american in face paint in front of a largely white crowd

-The dance moves are exaggerated in order for a whole stadium to see the dance

-The dance is done with a headdress on, which is not what would have happened

--the Peoria tribe, the closest connection to the Illini nation still in existence, changed its position on the chief 4 years ago IIRC. After long-time support, the tribal council voted 3-2 against its the university using the chief.

-people outside the program who don't know the history lump it together and stereotype it as blatant racism

The good:

-The school originally had the name Illini in order to honor the past of the state and to identify the students and alumni. The Illini tribe co-operated with and worked together with the original white settlers of the state. The whites and Illini shared quite a bit and were on the same side in nearly every skirmish. The Illini were pursued by other tribes and basically forever extinguished by other indian tribes in the area. It is no surprise then that these other tribes were among the first to call for the removal of the Illini name.

-The word 'fighting' was added in front of Illini to athletic teams after WWI in order to honor those within the university community who perished in the Great War. (Side note: Illinois' football stadium, Memorial Stadium, is a tribute to those victims as well and there is one column for every student/alumnus who perished during the war.)

-Chief Illiniwek was developed between the band director and the head football coach in the mid-1920s. Illiniwek is a carefully chosen word by Zuppke meant to convey the ideal he wants from his young men. Illiniwek: "The Whole man: physically, intellectually, and spiritually"

-the Chief has never been a mascot and doesn't do mascoty things. You'll never see a foam #1 finger. You'll never see back-flips and rah-rah cheers. The Chief doesn't stand on the sidelines throughout the game.

-The Chief is only used in a halftime celebration of tradition and honor to the state's and university's past and present. He does a dance, based on authentic moves, and stands solemnly in the middle of the field/court to lead the crowd in a singing of the alma mater.

-Chief Illiniwek's outfit is authentic.

-Chief Illiniwek is not a caricature being laughed at by the crowd. His movements inspire unity and promote tradition.

--The Chief is an honor to the past of my state and my university. The Illini are a part of my history of which I am proud.

-I've been to many places and seen their traditions-scrip 'i' at Ohio State-Varsity at Wisconsin. I haven't seen one that bonds the whole stadium like Chief Illiniwek.

For those who don't know, This is the Chief's halftime football performance
clip of the stands at a basketball game


obviously, I'm pro-chief. I find it an honor to the history of my state. I take umbrage with those that divide this into a native-American v White-American argument. I don't see this as a we v they history. I see the Illini tribe as every bit a part of my history. I also see the university uses Chief Illiniwek and the name Illini in a respectful manner. I do wish they could improve slightly, like only have the head-dress on during the solemn singing of the alma mater and not during the dance. However, I am against the removal of the Chief that highlights the original founding of my home state.

I do see the need for removal though based mainly on the point I bolded. Most people cannot see the unique situation and will prejudge it as racism. Despite a well-thought out and well-debated issue in the local region, those outside the area perceive us all as bigoted hicks.

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This is a good post MT2R, it highlights some sides of it that I hadn't though about before. However, as a total Illinois outsider I have attended one UI game (vs Oregon in Chicago a few years back, you killed us), that was my first exposure to the Chief and I was pretty appalled by what I say and couldn't believe what was going on. I can see the traditional side of it now but I can almost guarentee that not everyone was viewing it the same way. For example:

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Chief Illiniwek is not a caricature being laughed at by the crowd. His movements inspire unity and promote tradition.

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This statement is just a little bit silly, a good portion of the student section was not holding hands in unity recalling the grand tradition of the tribe, I promise. While they werent laughing at they guy at all, I just feel like the whole display was very far from respectful. Again this was my first impression from an outsider who knew nothing about it going in the game.

I just think that in today's (perhaps overly) PC world, this is an easy thing to see go...sorry for your loss.

[Clarkmeister]

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Too bad that its not about the Peoria tribe.

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Right. It's about money. Indians object, the University is deaf. The NCAA tells you that you can't host playoff games, you listen.

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The Peoria tribe really has virtually no relation to anything being discussed here. Them objecting is only slightly more relevant than some random Apache tribe objecting. And since their objection is the crux of your argument, I'm not sure what your point really is.