AA

[bbbushu]

ILP929,

how can you tell that BT is crazy enough to do this with one pair? i can't tell from the OP.

bbbushu

[TomBrooks]

Looks like he has a strong hand but he might only have two pair since he was on a Button Steal...K9, K8. He probably would have capped KK. He might have 99 but theres also a small chance a Lag might play AK this way also so I think it's worth a call down.

[KilgoreTrout]

icky flop check. Gotta lead that with BB in the hand.

Call down from his turn raise.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]
ILP929,

how can you tell that BT is crazy enough to do this with one pair? i can't tell from the OP.

bbbushu

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you that the hero is not going to win this hand very often, But sometimes the hero will be against two pair and counterfeit it, and sometimes the hero will get really lucky and outdraw a set by spiking and ace on the river, and lastly and probably most importantly sometimes the hero will have the best hand on the turn. Its a horrible situation but a call down is still necessary.

You know whats funny bbbushu, the nature of your question implies that we need a read to see a showdown here. When im in these kind of spots I need a read NOT to see a showdown. Seeing a showdown here is automatic for me unless I have a very strong read that suggests otherwise. The action of this hand alone will not dissuade me from my calldown plan.

[Munga30]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand was played perferctly, now finish it off by calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the flop check-raise. Button is a bet when checked to kind of player. There's 9sb in the pot and there's that gutshot rich flop and we don't fear lots of the deck (e.g., no overs to fear).

Can we discuss why, once threebet by this button and we're HU, cap & lead is better than call and cr (or call/donk)?

[bbbushu]

ILP929,

sorry but i think my vague quip made you assume that i was NOT planning on showing down in this hand. especially against this kind of player, i think it's automatic that we find out what s/he holds and whether or not it can beat our strong hand. obv we have a number of outs if we're currently behind.

my question should have read: why cap the flop? why lead the turn? i feel like the three-bet is a pretty strong sign that we may be in trouble, since OP does not indicate villain would do this, even with TPNK.

i am dead set on seeing showdown, but after getting three-bet, i don't know the point in capping and leading the turn.

thanks/sorry,
bbbushu

p.s. " i need a read to NOT call down" = gold at these stakes

[ILOVEPOKER929]

Munga and bbbushu, Theres enough draws on this board to make me want to cap/lead. My thought process is, if this guy really liked his hand why would he 3bet the flop? Why wouldnt he call the heros flop checkraise and pop the turn? I think this guy is going to have a drawing hand that wants a free card very often, it could be anything from a gutshot draw/OESD to middle/bottom pair, or lastly he could just have a standard top pair Kx type of hand. If we knew he had Kx then naturally I would call the flop and check/raise the turn. Alas, we dont have this perfect information and becuz this kind of flop 3bet is so often followed by a turn check, I would cap/lead and take it from there.

[Sushiglutton]

I'm not folding so the question is if their is value in raising. I don't think there is. U only have a pair and button could have many hands that beats u. The only hand(s) u beat is AK-KT but that's getting pretty unlikley. Just call down.

[bbbushu]

ILP929,

i think i see what you're saying. you interpret villain's aggression on the flop to be signal of WEAKNESS, correct? not total-bluff weakness but the three-bet is more strategic and less for value.

despite this, i may still not be convinced that it's better to keep it floored. i guess most of the players i see at smaller stakes don't three-bet for a free card very often OR slowplay after getting check-raised (while if we lead they might raise for a free card OR wait until the turn to push their strongest hands).

the two lines are probably pretty close, but i think that your statement

[ QUOTE ]
this kind of flop 3bet is [...] often followed by a turn check

[/ QUOTE ]

assumes some things about villain's thought process that might not be occurring (considering his/her love to bet whenever checked to, including into a pre-flop capper...)

good discussion!
bbbushu