preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,

[cero_z]

[ QUOTE ]
100% standard

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably a basic question I should know the answer to, but why is raising to 2K w/ intention to call a shove better than shoving? Are you expecting AQ and less to shove, or are you hoping to get some calls from those hands? My standard is to shove, to occasionally fold the TT or AK that doesn't like calling 6000 more hoping to flip a coin.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
100% standard

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably a basic question I should know the answer to, but why is raising to 2K w/ intention to call a shove better than shoving? Are you expecting AQ and less to shove, or are you hoping to get some calls from those hands? My standard is to shove, to occasionally fold the TT or AK that doesn't like calling 6000 more hoping to flip a coin.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do it because if somebody's 3-betting me light I like to 4-bet light. But since a push and a pot comitting 4-bet are often interpreted the same way, when I'm 4-betting light I like to risk the minimum instead of pushing as I think it's just as effective. But obviously if I do that, I have to play AK/AA the same way.

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]

I do it because if somebody's 3-betting me light I like to 4-bet light. But since a push and a pot comitting 4-bet are often interpreted the same way, when I'm 4-betting light I like to risk the minimum instead of pushing as I think it's just as effective. But obviously if I do that, I have to play AK/AA the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

for 5k stacks, making it 2k and then folding with small unpaired cards is a mistake if he ever 5bets with unpaired hands other than ak. for 6k stacks its still a very thin fold (especially if you're saying part of the justification for 4betting small and calling with ak is that you might get him to shove a worse hand).

i shove here because i prefer to shove rather than 4bet and fold with my light 4bets. make the stacks 150BB or more and i think 4betting with room to fold becomes a better play.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I do it because if somebody's 3-betting me light I like to 4-bet light. But since a push and a pot comitting 4-bet are often interpreted the same way, when I'm 4-betting light I like to risk the minimum instead of pushing as I think it's just as effective. But obviously if I do that, I have to play AK/AA the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

for 5k stacks, making it 2k and then folding with small unpaired cards is a mistake if he ever 5bets with unpaired hands other than ak

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been 5-bet a lot. I've called the 5-bets a lot and thus seen what people 5-bet with. It's not often 9Ts. The range of hands that 5-bet is not one that makes it profitable to call with unpaired small cards.

[ike]

For 5k stacks you're getting 7 : 3 on the call. The math obviously depends on exactly which small unpaired cards you have. Lets take 74s as an example. You have about 40% equity vs ak (and other big aces) and about 20% equity vs AA (and other big pairs). So if he's 5betting a range like jj+ aq+, you're 20% against 24 combinations and 40% against 32 combinations for a total of greater than 30% equity. Folding is a mistake against this range. (i don't have pokerstove on this computer so i'm making estimates based on some twodimes calculations, if someone wants to run this in pokerstove and get the exact numbers, that'd be appreciated).

[reLoad]

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

383,556,096 games 0.672 secs 570,768,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 30.1150 % 29.89% 00.23% { 74s }
Hand 2: 69.8850 % 69.66% 00.23% { JJ+, AQs+, AQo+ }

[ike]

thanks

[jfish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
100% standard

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably a basic question I should know the answer to, but why is raising to 2K w/ intention to call a shove better than shoving? Are you expecting AQ and less to shove, or are you hoping to get some calls from those hands? My standard is to shove, to occasionally fold the TT or AK that doesn't like calling 6000 more hoping to flip a coin.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do you 4bet to when youre 150bb deep? 200bb deep? shoving in both situations is kinda gross with a hand like AK. do you just make a standard 4b there?

magicninja,

i understand what you're saying, but i tend to not 4b much when i have position. id like 4betting more if say i opened CO and button raised when i had AK/AQ, QQ+/whatever. its probably just a difference in playing style, though its possible im playing suboptimally.

[MagicNinja]

I used to never 4 bet in position. If you play higher it seems like you are getting 3 bet so light that you have to.

Also 2k is significantly better number because we won't always have AK here; i think its basically same thing in a vacuum obviously.

[Ansky]

cero_z,

I think 2k is superior to to shoving, because it at least gives the impression of folding equity. I'm not saying that it WILL make a difference, if he has say.... AQ, but w/ this we at least give him a chance to shove whereas if we just shove I think he basically never calls a shove. Overall I am either folding, calling, or raising to 2k with any of my hands here, and basically never shoving.

If anyone has anything to say, especially regarding that last sentence, I think it'd be a good discussion.