Need help with ruling

[PantsOnFire]

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I guess the real question is can you invoke the IWTSTH rule before the pot has been awarded by the dealer.

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Well if you don't your not going to have any cards to invoke it on because all the losing cards will be mixed into the muck before the pot is pushed.

If you want to invoke IWTSTH you better do it before the dealer mucks them (oddly enough I often have to explain this to players -- "Yes I heard you , you want to see those cards. But you see you didn't say that until I had already mixed those cards into the muck. now how do you propose that I show you those cards?").

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I have only invoked this rule once (guy did it to me twice) and that was at Caesers. It was a three way pot and this guy had gone all-in on the flop. At the river, he mucked before the other players and I asked the dealer to see his hand. He took the two cards and put them beside the muck. He then sorted out the pot between the other two players, mucked their cards pushed the pot to a player and then showed the hand.

I am fairly certain that when I asked to see his hand, it could be considered live but after the pot was awarded to the player, his cards are then dead.

Am I getting this correct or not?

So when that first player mucked, if I had just reached out and flipped his cards over instead of asking the dealer and gone through the process I described above, does that mean his cards are now live again and he can win the pot?

And if this is true, then I suppose I could sit beside a fish and turn his hand over on the river every time just in case he won one of those pots. I want the money to stay with the fish.

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The point is that at the time you said IWTSTH if the player had immediately grabbed back his cards and flipped them before the dealer got them to muck then they would have been live. Your saying IWTSTH does not kill a hand.

Now the procedure the dealer used here was not the procedur prefer, and part of the reason that is the case is that it creates e issue of uncertainty.

When a player tosses his hand and another player (not the putative winner) asks to see it I will immediately grab it in touch it to the muck (ceremonially denoting it was killed) and then flip it over to be seen and then flip it back over and mix it into the muck.

By holding it aside till after the pot is pushed you create the problem of uncertainty as to when the hand got killed (which is the issue you are concerned about) and also it creates a second problem. And that is if for some reason a floor person rules that hand live and it turns out to be a winner now the pot has already been pushed and we have a much bigger problem.

As to your flipping the hand ove abbsolutely believe the hand is live, simply because you cut off the players opportunity to do it himself. But you miss the other point. If you do this you are subject to penalty. And while the first penalty you get may simply be a warning, if as you say you do it everytime the player folds you will find yourself no longer permitted to play.

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Okay, I think the issue has boiled down to the window between a player releasing their hand face down and the dealer taking that folded hand and killing it.

And I believe you are talking about a player tossing their cards face down and forward and then (or at the same time) another player tables a hand that the previous player can beat. Then if they are faster than the dealer, they can grab their cards back and put them back into play because the dealer had not yet killed the hand. And I also believe you are stating that another player doing the flipping is same result for the player, his hand is live still.

That may be true in some places are even all places. Maybe some dealers are slow, maybe some players are lighting fast. I just don't like it and I don't like it a lot.