Absolute Soulreading/Rigged thread #3

[apefish]

9/20 update: giving credit where it's due

[ QUOTE ]
[23:09] Adam Junglen: man
[23:09] Adam Junglen: imagine multi-accounting super users
[23:09] Adam Junglen: that'd be fun
[23:09] Adam Junglen: lol
[23:09] Adanthar: the software is clearly 1 table max
[23:09] Adam Junglen: Come on
[23:09] Adanthar: and actually come to think about it
[23:09] Adam Junglen: a little humor in there
[23:09] Adanthar: it cant be software
[23:09] Adanthar: it has to be some kind of program with a login
[23:10] Adanthar: otherwise they'd just run 2 copies and multiaccount
[23:10] Adanthar: nah you seriously gave me the idea just now heh
[23:10] Adanthar: dude
[23:10] Adanthar: you just showed conclusively its an inside job
[23:10] Adanthar: omfg
[23:11] Adam Junglen: As long as you give me the credit and make it sound as t hough it was a coherent thought
[23:11] Adam Junglen: I sure did
[23:11] Adanthar: yeah I'm gonna post it right now
[23:11] Adam Junglen: make sure to point out that I'm so brilliant I did it without realizing

[/ QUOTE ]

9/19 update: bigdogpckt5s, an AP tourney reg, talking about STEAMROLLER's wins in late August

[ QUOTE ]
Sep 19 2007, 07:43 AM
Ok only once in my mind did I ever think its possible that people new what was going to come up or could see whole cards etc. I was playing the 100 f.o. in the afternoon when this guy i have never heard of comes up to me and says bigdog want to have a 1k last longer at this point i was cl I quickly looked him up on the db and he was 0-24 in multis on ap and never had a cash. But i refused the last longer anyway because i didnt no this guy. He went on to win this tourny 2 hours later he found me in the 150k for a 1k last longer again. I refused and he also won that tourny which i watched him make the most absurd moves all toury long and continue to suck out and win. It was the most bizarre thing I have ever come across. I even called AP vip to inquire about this because why would a guy who is 0-24 try to make a last longer with a person who is usually ontop of the tlb for 1k and he then goes onto win both tournys. I wish i could remember this guys name but the fact is i cant. Anyway read what you want into all that but it was defenetly extreamly bizarre.

bigdogpckt5s

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9/19 update 2: N82 making big progress on a "broken AP HH" converter for PT - expect screenshots soon

9/18 update: We have another rigged account, Payup, bringing the total to 5

9/18 update 2: In this Casinomeister thread, on page 3, a Casinomeister regular asks "if people really buy that crap". One post later, he gets outed as a 2+2 Absolute spammer with the same IP address as the President of Absolute Entertainment.

After the debacle of the last attempt I will be posting this in sections. Likely 3- but could be one more or one less depending how much I want to do.

This is a cliffsnotes of the old cliffsnotes thread regarding the suspected cheating accounts at Absolute.

First- the old OP by Imsakidd and some related posts/edits.

New 9/17 update: We have the Potripper final table HH: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=beats&Number=1212 3790. At this final table, he open folded PF twice and folded to a single PF raise twice in the last 27 hands. Both open folds were with AA and KK behind; the folds made to a raise were when villains had QQ and JJ.

Extra special mod note: random conspiracy theories about AP's rigged flops, other sites, or online poker in general = instaban. Take it to other threads or p5's.

new mod edit: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=12111494

Adanthar requested someone make a cliffsnotes thread to condense the already massive thread, so here goes.

There was a thread in High Stakes Limit that has been up for maybe a week or so, with speculation that a few high stakes limit players could see hole cards. Accounts under suspicion were STEAMROLLER , DOUBLEDRAG , and GRAYCAT . The suspicion had to do with the Win% at showdown, river aggression factor, and their extremely loose preflop stats.

POTRIPPER also made it very deep in a $1k NL tourney, making expert calls like:

Stage #896976330 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $4500 - 2007-09-13 01:43:49 (ET)
Table: 14 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($765740 in chips)
Seat 8 - CRAZYMARCO ($214260 in chips)
POTRIPPER - Ante $450
CRAZYMARCO - Ante $450
POTRIPPER - Posts small blind $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Posts big blind $4500
*** POCKET CARDS ***
POTRIPPER - Calls $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
*** FLOP *** [4h Kd Kh]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $9000
CRAZYMARCO - Calls $9000
*** TURN *** [4h Kd Kh] [7s]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $13500
CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310
POTRIPPER - Calls $186810
*** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings)
CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings)
POTRIPPER Collects $428520 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($428520)
Board [4h Kd Kh 7s 5s]
Seat 3: POTRIPPER (dealer) (small blind) won Total ($428520) HI$428520) with One pair, kings(ten kicker) [10c 9c - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:10c,P:9c,B:7s]
Seat 8: CRAZYMARCO (big blind) HI:lost with One pair, kings [9h 2h - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:9h,B:7s,B:5s]



After some time (or maybe after xposted to BBV), some suspicion was also brought up regarding these players NL play, mostly at 10/20 and 15/30 NL. They all played a VERY loose preflop style (90/80ish) with hudge river aggression factors. These "superusers" were much easier to spot at NL, especially given about 100 hands of HU from ikestoys vs. DOUBLEDRAG. In the 100 hands, the 3 times Doubledrag folded were when ikestoys had QQ-AA, or when another player 3bet before Doubledrag could act.

It was then brought up that these accounts are very likely the same person, perhaps Mark Seif. Hold on, Let me get my DOOMSWITCH. He was playing HU at 75/150 poo fling, playing terribly and dropping a couple k. Then he says "one second punk"....leaves the table.....then comes back about a minute later and announces "I'm ready to take you down." (from linked thread). Highlights following this involved openfolding when his opponent flopped a boat and capping bottom pair when ahead, etc.

So I think thats the gist of it. It is pretty obvious that if these guys are colluding they are very bad at it and arent really hiding it at all. It is possible the accounts are an AP insider who is disgruntled (Seif was fired a month or 2 ago) and is trying to tarnish the sites reputation.

Nothing is 100% proven yet. There are a few hands where the accounts play in a way where it is not obvious they can see cards:

STAGE #753356407: HOLDEM NO LIMIT $30 - 2007-09-04 17:21:03 (ET)
Table: ALHAMBRA (Real Money) Seat #5 is the dealer
Seat 5 - DOUBLEDRAG ($19435 in chips)
Seat 6 - PRIMOGENITOX ($3041 in chips)
Seat 3 - PTOWNER ($8196 in chips)
Seat 4 - THE GRINDER ($7396 in chips)
PRIMOGENITOX - Posts small blind $15
PTOWNER - Posts big blind $30
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to PRIMOGENITOX [Qd Qh]
THE GRINDER - Raises $120 to $120
DOUBLEDRAG - Raises $270 to $270
PRIMOGENITOX - Raises $985 to $1000
PTOWNER - Folds
THE GRINDER - Folds
DOUBLEDRAG - Folds
PRIMOGENITOX - returned ($730) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
PRIMOGENITOX - Does not show
PRIMOGENITOX Collects $690 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($690)
Seat 3: PTOWNER (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: THE GRINDER Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: DOUBLEDRAG (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: PRIMOGENITOX (small blind) collected Total ($690)


Seat 5 - HOWDUZZYDOIT ($16.50 in chips)
Seat 1 - FRISCOMELT ($8301 in chips)
Seat 2 - FU_BEGGAR ($6000 in chips)
Seat 4 - DOUBLEDRAG ($2365 in chips)
FRISCOMELT - Posts small blind $15
FU_BEGGAR - Posts big blind $30
*** POCKET CARDS ***
DOUBLEDRAG - Raises $90 to $90
HOWDUZZYDOIT - Folds
FRISCOMELT - Calls $75
FU_BEGGAR - Folds
*** FLOP *** [6d 4d Kc]
FRISCOMELT - Checks
DOUBLEDRAG - Bets $90
FRISCOMELT - Calls $90
*** TURN *** [6d 4d Kc] [Jc]
FRISCOMELT - Checks
DOUBLEDRAG - Bets $480
FRISCOMELT - Calls $480
*** RIVER *** [6d 4d Kc Jc] [2c]
FRISCOMELT - Bets $7170
DOUBLEDRAG - All-In $1705
FRISCOMELT - returned ($5465) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
FRISCOMELT - Shows [8c 7c] (Flush, king high)
DOUBLEDRAG - Mucks
FRISCOMELT Collects $4758 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($4760) | Rake ($2)
Board [6d 4d Kc Jc 2c]
Seat 1: FRISCOMELT (small blind) won Total ($4758) HI$4758) wit Flush, king high [8c 7c - B:Kc,B:Jc,P:8c,P:7c,B:2c]
Seat 2: FU_BEGGAR (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: DOUBLEDRAG HI: [Mucked] [Qs 2s]
Seat 5: HOWDUZZYDOIT (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS

And some screenshots:


[/ QUOTE ]

------------------------------------------------------------

Now I take over (apefish)

Luckily since this is BBV, pics were included.

[ QUOTE ]
Teh funnies:

kkcountry


ADMO


[/ QUOTE ]

And like any good BBV thread, some pics were left out but shouldn't have been.

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no love imsa [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]



[/ QUOTE ]


Edmond Dantes posted another decent summary that was a lot of duplicate info- but detailed enough I think to include. It was locked for being a

dupe thread but is worth looking at.

It can be found here


------- Nat posts one of the suspected accounts mtt db.

GRAYCAT's MTT history on AP:

Date Buyin Tournament/Event Place Entrants Winnings
9/15/2007 $10 NL Hold'em 344 644 —
9/12/2007 $1,000 NL Hold'em 43 98 —
8/27/2007 $2 NL Hold'em+Rebuys 38 92 —
8/25/2007 $500 NL Hold'em 22 306 $1,071.00
8/21/2007 $20 NL Hold'em+Rebuys 115 134 —
8/19/2007 $150 NL Hold'em 219 552 —
8/18/2007 $500 NL Hold'em 19 365 $1,277.50
8/9/2007 $5 NL Hold'em 2239 2248 —
8/5/2007 $50 NL Hold'em 256 256 —
8/4/2007 $500 NL Hold'em 309 314 —
7/28/2007 $500 NL Hold'em 142 333 —
7/26/2007 $5 NL Hold'em 1832 2190 —
7/26/2007 $0.25 NL Hold'em+Rebuys 1 172 $5.00
7/25/2007 $1,000 NL Hold'em 86 93 —
7/25/2007 $0.25 NL Hold'em+Rebuys 141 168 —
7/25/2007 $20 NL Hold'em+Rebuys 128 133 —
7/24/2007 $25 NL Hold'em+Rebuys 8 10 —
7/23/2007 $15 NL Hold'em+Rebuys 1 19 $530.00
7/23/2007 $20 PL Omaha Hi/Lo 94 94 —
7/23/2007 $5 NL Hold'em 442 527 —
7/23/2007 $5 NL Hold'em 296 297 —
7/22/2007 $150 NL Hold'em 450 474 —
7/21/2007 $500 NL Hold'em 291 299 —
7/19/2007 $1 NL Hold'em 1456 1585 —
7/19/2007 $50 NL Hold'em 169 235 —
7/19/2007 $5 NL Hold'em 64 135 —
7/19/2007 $5 NL Hold'em 280 284 —
7/19/2007 $0.10 NL Hold'em+Rebuys 115 217 —
7/14/2007 $5 NL Hold'em+Rebuys 19 132 —
7/14/2007 $500 NL Hold'em 214 284 —
7/13/2007 $5 NL Hold'em+Rebuys 82 89 —
6/30/2007 $500 NL Hold'em 273 300 —
6/20/2007 $25 NL Hold'em+Rebuys 38 39 —
6/20/2007 $25 NL Hold'em+Rebuys 40 42 —
6/19/2007 $25 NL Hold'em+Rebuys 30 33 —
5/17/2007 $100 NL Hold'em 45 45 —
5/15/2007 $5 NL Hold'em 147 230 —
5/13/2007 $150 NL Hold'em 175 392 —
5/11/2007 $3 NL Hold'em 14 17 —
5/8/2007 $50 NL Hold'em 142 150 —

He's stuck 4k with a -60% ROI


------- nerd debate ensues about just how someone would be able to create a hack like this. For purposes of this thread it's a huge yawner although somewhat interesting. I'll summarize by saying "nobody really knows for certain how it was done if done and whether or not it required an inside presence/knowledge of the software." This part of the debate really isn't important for the cliffsnotes.

------- there is another story about someone and Mark Seif in a session one night. I am leaving out that story also because even the person involved essentially came out to say he didn't believe Mark Seif cheated him. He also said his new policy is to never play against site owners. It's an interesting read but not pertinent to this thread. You can read it all here. .


------- much of the debate involved in the entire thread is over cheating vs normal variance/running hot. I think it is obvious in the thread that many respected higher stakes players whom nobody would think could talk about accusations like this lightly/are in fact quite convinced something is not right. I'll name Adanthar, Schneids, and ikestoys, among others. Sorry if I left you off but I wanted just a few names so people don't think "great another conspiracy theory- break out the tin foil helmets."

to give an example of how out of the ordinary we are talking... Gemmer points out this hand.

With the most suspicious hand being:

STAGE #746856569: HOLDEM NORMAL $200/$400 - 2007-08-28 11:47:04 (ET)
Table: LOC NESS AVE (Real Money) Seat #7 is the dealer
Seat 7 - GEMMER ($7200 in chips)
Seat 3 - GOFETCH ($11990 in chips)
Seat 4 - GRAYCAT ($24027.89 in chips)
Seat 5 - MNTBIKR18 ($7880 in chips)
GOFETCH - Posts small blind $100
GRAYCAT - Posts big blind $200
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to GEMMER [5d 5c]
MNTBIKR18 - Raises $400 to $400
GEMMER - Raises $600 to $600
GOFETCH - Folds
GRAYCAT - Raises $600 to $800
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400
GEMMER - Calls $200
*** FLOP *** [2c 2s 5s]
GRAYCAT - Checks
MNTBIKR18 - Checks
GEMMER - Bets $200
GRAYCAT - Folds
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $200
*** TURN *** [2c 2s 5s] [10h]
MNTBIKR18 - Checks
GEMMER - Bets $400
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400
*** RIVER *** [2c 2s 5s 10h] [Ah]
MNTBIKR18 - Checks
GEMMER - Bets $400
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GEMMER - Shows [5d 5c] (Full house, fives full of twos)
MNTBIKR18 - Mucks
GEMMER Collects $4495 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($4500) | Rake ($5)
Board [2c 2s 5s 10h Ah]
Seat 3: GOFETCH (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: GRAYCAT (big blind) Folded on the FLOP
Seat 5: MNTBIKR18 HI: [Mucked] [Jh 10c]
Seat 7: GEMMER (dealer) won Total ($4495) HI$4495) with Full house, fives full of twos [5d 5c - B:5s,P:5d,P:5c,B:2s,B:2c]

He coldcaps preflop and then proceeds to check/fold the flop on this board.



------- several gimmicks make an appearance. One is worth noting. Pure Gold.

Bill Belichick posts...

"I want to let everyone know that in the past few months I've taken over the role as Mark Seif's poker coach. I can state definitively that our hand viewing procedures are compliant with the stated rules."

If this account never posts again it will be too soon. That's how good that post is.


------ things get exciting. Poster Johnnycakes notes that suspected account Doubledrag is sitting at AP 10/20 NL.
Fireworks ensue.

some hands...

Stage #764235402: Holdem No Limit $20 - 2007-09-16 18:57:07 (ET)
Table: DOHENY AVE (Real Money) Seat #5 is the dealer
Seat 5 - DOUBLEDRAG ($4000 in chips)
Seat 2 - 2006STANGGT ($800 in chips)
DOUBLEDRAG - Posts small blind $10
2006STANGGT - Posts big blind $20
*** POCKET CARDS ***
DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $10
2006STANGGT - Checks
*** FLOP *** [4c 6s 3c]
2006STANGGT - Bets $20
DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $20
*** TURN *** [4c 6s 3c] [5c]
2006STANGGT - Bets $40
DOUBLEDRAG - Raises $80 to $80
2006STANGGT - Calls $40
*** RIVER *** [4c 6s 3c 5c] [3d]
2006STANGGT - All-In $680
DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $680
*** SHOW DOWN ***
2006STANGGT - Shows [5d 3h] (Full house, threes full of fives)
DOUBLEDRAG - Mucks
2006STANGGT Collects $1599.50 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($1600) | Rake ($0.50)
Board [4c 6s 3c 5c 3d]
Seat 2: 2006STANGGT (big blind) won Total ($1599.50) All-In HI$1599.50) with Full house, threes full of fives [5d 3h - P:3h,B:3d,B:3c,P:5d,B:5c]
Seat 5: DOUBLEDRAG (dealer) (small blind) HI: [Mucked] [Qs 2h]


LOL, he's read the thread?

Holdem No Limit $20 - 2007-09-16 18:57:40 (ET)
Table: DOHENY AVE (Real Money) Seat #2 is the dealer
Seat 2 - 2006STANGGT ($1599.50 in chips)
Seat 5 - DOUBLEDRAG ($3200 in chips)
2006STANGGT - Posts small blind $10
DOUBLEDRAG - Posts big blind $20
*** POCKET CARDS ***
2006STANGGT - Calls $10
DOUBLEDRAG - Checks
*** FLOP *** [5h Kd 8c]
DOUBLEDRAG - Checks
2006STANGGT - Bets $20
DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $20
*** TURN *** [5h Kd 8c] [4d]
DOUBLEDRAG - Checks
2006STANGGT - Checks
*** RIVER *** [5h Kd 8c 4d] [6c]
DOUBLEDRAG - Checks
2006STANGGT - Bets $140
DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $140
*** SHOW DOWN ***
2006STANGGT - Shows [2c 7h] (Straight, four to eight)
DOUBLEDRAG - Shows [5s 7c] (Straight, four to eight)
2006STANGGT Collects $179.75 from main pot
DOUBLEDRAG Collects $179.75 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($360) | Rake ($0.50)
Board [5h Kd 8c 4d 6c]
Seat 2: 2006STANGGT (dealer) (small blind) won Total ($179.75) HI$179.75) with Straight, four to eight [2c 7h - B:8c,P:7h,B:6c,B:5h,B:4d]
Seat 5: DOUBLEDRAG (big blind) won Total ($179.75) HI$179.75) with Straight, four to eight [5s 7c - B:8c,P:7c,B:6c,P:5s,B:4d]


From Hawklet...

must have thought 4 high was good

Stage #764259764: Holdem No Limit $20 - 2007-09-16 19:02:42 (ET)
Table: DOHENY AVE (Real Money) Seat #2 is the dealer
Seat 2 - 2006STANGGT ($1737.75 in chips)
Seat 5 - DOUBLEDRAG ($3057.75 in chips)
2006STANGGT - Posts small blind $10
DOUBLEDRAG - Posts big blind $20
*** POCKET CARDS ***
2006STANGGT - Calls $10
DOUBLEDRAG - Checks
*** FLOP *** [5c 5d Qh]
DOUBLEDRAG - Checks
2006STANGGT - Checks
*** TURN *** [5c 5d Qh] [7d]
DOUBLEDRAG - Checks
2006STANGGT - Bets $40
DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $40
*** RIVER *** [5c 5d Qh 7d] [2s]
DOUBLEDRAG - Checks
2006STANGGT - Bets $60
DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $60
*** SHOW DOWN ***
2006STANGGT - Shows [4c 6c] (One pair, fives)
DOUBLEDRAG - Mucks
2006STANGGT Collects $239.50 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($240) | Rake ($0.50)
Board [5c 5d Qh 7d 2s]
Seat 2: 2006STANGGT (dealer) (small blind) won Total ($239.50) HI$239.50) with One pair, fives(six kicker) [4c 6c - B:5d,B:5c,B:Qh,B:7d,P:6c]
Seat 5: DOUBLEDRAG (big blind) HI: [Mucked] [3s 4s]

Parlay Slow makes the insight...
"doubledrag is just taunting 2+2 with that 4 high call"


------ people talk about whether to play him or not if hes deliberately dumping to cover. a massive rail gathers, forcing some to not be able to watch.

In Imsa's words... "DAMN I WANNANA RIALRALIRAL WTF"


End part one. hand histories from "the dumping sessions" to follow.