straight&flush vs fullhouse

jetonn · #1 09-19-2007, 04:33 PM

I suspect I am overplaying this kind of hands.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($10)
UTG ($43.35)
MP ($59.07)
CO ($25.70)
Hero ($58.51)
SB ($53.36)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.25, SB calls $2, 1 fold, UTG calls $1.75.

Flop: ($7.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $3.6, SB folds, UTG calls $3.60.

Turn: ($14.45) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: ($14.45) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $9, UTG raises to $31.5, Hero calls $22.50.

Final Pot: $77.45

ugh, having gained experience I think the rivercall was a donker.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($52.94)
BB ($50)
UTG ($50.39)
MP ($124.39)
Hero ($50.11)
Button ($65.02)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.5, 2 folds, BB calls $2, MP calls $2.

Flop: ($7.75) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($31.75) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $5, BB raises to $12, MP folds, Hero calls $7.
River: ($31.75) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $17, Hero raises $50.11 (All-In), BB calls $49.50 (All-In).

Final Pot: $131.97

I really dont know about this hand. Maybe I should have checked the turn.

Plz criticize each street.

AFCBeer · #2 09-19-2007, 04:43 PM

Welcome to the forums.

1. I have a little rule of thumb that says whenever there are 3 broadway cards on the board with 1 of them paired, there is a very good chance of a full house been out. The raise by UTG confirms this.

2. You should just call here. Your hand will usually be good here but the trouble with raising is that it wont get called by many worse hands. If the BB has the Kd he might call but any other diamond will fold. Obviously you will get called by the FH.

I think both hands were played fine until the river. It seems to be that you are unsure of certain river principles which are actually very important. The "Theory of Poker" has a good (if rather complicated) chapter on river play and I think the Sklansky No Limit book does too. Its definately worth having a look at these because river mistakes are usually the biggest.

EDIT: Its best not to include results in your hands. Because we know you lost to the FH its obvious what the best play was. You will get more constructive feedback if people can debate the hand without knowing the final result.

sholler · #3 09-19-2007, 05:07 PM

First hand is tricky. If you put him on a rang of KK+,JJ-TT,AQs+,KTs+,AQo+,KTo+, all of which I think push the river here, you have 45% equity and need to call with the money that's already in the pot. If you think that he would C/R without a FH with the club on the turn to protect his king, you can get rid of AK, KQ, and KT, after which you are behind 30/70. At these stakes, I could see a player with any K trying to get tricky and playing it like this, and I probably stack off to a full house here.

In the second hand I push and pray for a call. A made FH on the turn is almost never going to C/R you when the 3rd diamond hits because it doesn't scare him at all. In fact, a made FH calls and prays that another diamond comes. I can't see a TT C/Ring the turn either because it just doesn't make sense. Villain's line doesn't make sense for any FH other than T2 which I doubt he coldcalls with preflop OOP (or in position either). I stack off every day here to a FH.

Hail Eris · #4 09-19-2007, 05:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In the second hand I push and pray for a call. A made FH on the turn is almost never going to C/R you when the 3rd diamond hits because it doesn't scare him at all. In fact, a made FH calls and prays that another diamond comes.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is completely wrong. With a boat on a 3flush turn you need to be getting money in immediately, because people can still draw with one high diamond and not put any money in when they miss on the river, and because a small made flush will pay off now but not when you take a passive line and then wake up on a 4flush river.

jetonn · #5 09-19-2007, 11:22 PM

thanks for the welcome and your posts.
1st hand:
I donked the river.
2nd hand:
the river is a call and a good price for the nonnuts-flush. Im still wondering about the turn. I think if you are up against good players a check might be more profitable because if you arent beaten your opponents will fold most hands you beat and be trouble with the other ones. I think I bet out (being new to the table) because I thought they might call a bet with AK some high diamonds 99 and other stuff they shouldnt call with.

sholler · #6 09-20-2007, 12:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]

This is completely wrong. With a boat on a 3flush turn you need to be getting money in immediately, because people can still draw with one high diamond and not put any money in when they miss on the river, and because a small made flush will pay off now but not when you take a passive line and then wake up on a 4flush river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, think about what you posted (note that villain is oop). If villain has a FH, he wants the Ace to put money in on the turn in case a diamond doesn't hit on the river. In this case, he would b/3bet the turn, not plan a C/R and give Hero a free card to decide whether he wants to continue with the hand. If villain has a FH, and thinks that Hero may have a baby flush, he b/3bet all in on the turn also because no made flush is ever folding here, and a baby flush is raising if not pushing himself because he doesn't want to see a 4th diamond. Villain's line, specifically the C/R does not make sense for a FH. You just know, because OP told us, that villain had a FH, and you're trying to make his actions fit his hand. This is not standard play by a FH at all in the second hand, and to not felt this is leaving money on the table. I could be wrong, but to argue that the turn makes it more clear that Villain has a FH can not be right.

Edit: to clarify, it's not the villain's raise on the turn that doesn't make sense, it's the check that let him get to that point.

jetonn · #7 09-20-2007, 11:33 AM

well, villain was a super trappy player as I later found out. I dont know if his check was a reasonable line, I dont think it was especially good but I dont think its that bad either being in first postion the queen who put the 3flush out is likely to have given one of us a hand. I dont really like his line because we could easily have checked behind with hands we could have called a bet but im not sure, I also think I could have bet smaller here. however after his c/r we cant discount the possibility of a fh and he is likely to beat queens. I pushed because I thought he was overplaying something and expected a fh to push on the 4th diamond.