Strategic thinking against good players

[Heisenb3rg]

Unless you have a strong draw, The ace turn c/r should be done on a dry board... Gives him less cards to call you down with, and makes it less likely you are bluffing.
It also gives him way less draws to rebluff you with.

Brassmonkeys is like the worst spot to do it... because you can still have the best hand, and theres a billion draws for him to rebluff and to justify very weak call downs.. Against a spew monkey id probabily call that river even after being 3-bet lol...

Your faces wasnt the best spot but was much closer. Unfortunatly it hit a little too much of his range, and is a little too drawy. (A Q is showing down like always.. and a showdown monkey is showing down a lower pair).

I dont love with the way you worded it either VMA, but your point is valid. You can apply the concept to when the card is a scare card for both of you, but more likely to hit him than you (the key is the incentive for him to represent it)...

It also doesnt only apply to when calling, it's just a tool for hand reading... What action to take depends on the situation.

The best players to c/r the turn when the ace comes are the ones who will check behind a pair like QQ/KK.. This is because when they bet the turn, their range is composed of Ax, draw or b/f hand and thus has a higher % of hands you can fold out.

[BrassMonkey]

I don't see why the spot in which I chose to do it is so bad. On that dry flop in a blinds battle, I'm probably not ahead. He's probably got a 7, 6, or T, and the king is the perfect scare card on which to try for a check-raise (I suppose a donk might work, too). A three-bet sucks, obviously, but I still have outs, and if he just calls, I can fire again at a safe river. If he wasn't ahead on the flop (he could have been drawing at the 6 and 7), he'll probably fold, and he may think he has a tough decision if he holds only a pair of 6s, 7s, or Ts (although, if he has tens and called the turn raise, he'll probably call a river bet, too).

Now, what's wrong with that thinking?

Edit: The pot's probably too small in this example to go for this type of move, though, huh?

[Heisenb3rg]

Your argument is sound, but theres one fatal assumption your making. The reason its bad is because people dont fold pairs here.

Because its a blind battle he should know that

a) your restealing a ton
b) Kx isnt a huge part of your range

he should also see that there are a billion draws on this board that you could have.

or if hes a donkey and isnt thinking about this at all, hes probabily just paranoid and will showdown like they all do.

The only way this would be profitable is if you had a much tighter range and it was therefore very likely your opponent respected a turn c/r on this card..

Bluffing here is fine with some hands because there are draws he can have that you can fold out.. But since the board is so drawy, you need a strong draw yourself to withstand the heat of getting re-raised and minimize your investment. (the stronger your draw the less % of hands you need to fold out for it to be profitable to raise)

There is some implied fold equity against his low pairs on certain river cards; but all of those river cards hit you [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If you have a flush draw with low cards and you c/r this turn, you can probabily fold out a low pair on a A,J,Q river.. With the AJ you dont WANT that fold equity! it just decreases your implied odds.

Oh and if the board was dry and the turn was a K in your hand, whether you would c/r bluff or not entirely depends on how much air is in his range and the showdown value of your hand. If they arent very agro, you can fold. If they are, call down with A high, bluff raise with your highest equity air.

The point of raise semi bluffing in 6-max limit is mostly to fold out hands < 1 pair.

[BrassMonkey]

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Your argument is sound, but theres one fatal assumption your making. The reason its bad is because people dont fold pairs here.

Because its a blind battle he should know that

a) your restealing a ton
b) Kx isnt a huge part of your range

he should also see that there are a billion draws on this board that you could have.

or if hes a donkey and isnt thinking about this at all, hes probabily just paranoid and will showdown like they all do.

The only way this would be profitable is if you had a much tighter range and it was therefore very likely your opponent respected a turn c/r on this card..

Bluffing here is fine with some hands because there are draws he can have that you can fold out.. But since the board is so drawy, you need a strong draw yourself to withstand the heat of getting re-raised and minimize your investment. (the stronger your draw the less % of hands you need to fold out for it to be profitable to raise)

There is some implied fold equity against his low pairs on certain river cards; but all of those river cards hit you [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If you have a flush draw with low cards and you c/r this turn, you can probabily fold out a low pair on a A,J,Q river.. With the AJ you dont WANT that fold equity! it just decreases your implied odds.

Oh and if the board was dry and the turn was a K in your hand, whether you would c/r bluff or not entirely depends on how much air is in his range and the showdown value of your hand. If they arent very agro, you can fold. If they are, call down with A high, bluff raise with your highest equity air.

The point of raise semi bluffing in 6-max limit is mostly to fold out hands < 1 pair.


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As usual, a very insightful post that will definitely save me money. I'm pretty sure I've been trying to push people off of pairs with scare card raises far too much, and your explanation of how I might have killed my implied odds going into the river was great. Thanks!

[yourface]

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yourface and brassmonkey,
you guys are totally misapplying the concept. the board has to get scary for YOU, not him.

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an A is supposed to be scary for me no? perhaps it would have been better to make this play without 2 broadways on the board.
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And even then the point is to call him down with the stuff you have, not give him a chance to make a heroic rebluff.

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how so? he defines his hand pretty strongly with a 3bet imo and I don't have the odds to justify peeling to 4 outs. I suppose a heroic rebluff is possible, but it will be a long term money loser in this spot as I will usually have a hand that I am showing down (Ax most likely)

[milesdyson]

yourface that is a great example of the idea. he bets his whole range on that turn card. you really want Kx to fold here too because of how many chopping outs it has and the fact that nothing good can happen from keeping it in. there is also a nonzero chance he finds a fold with pocket pairs < qq.

brassmonkey posted a good hand, too, but he didn't know why. he thought it was an example of the ideas in the original post from his point of view, but it's actually a great example of it from his opponent's point of view. in bb's spot. brass's range is very wide here. the usual line for bb with, say, 5h4h would be to bet/call the turn (believing that sb probably hit the K). but, that K is the perfect card for SB to try to scare BB. now if BB knows and expects this, he can bet/3-bet 5h4h.

[chesspain]

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Seriously though, the way to combat this is the screwplay. TAG CO raises, I defend with a5, flop comes xxx, I check/raise. Turn is A, GREAT spot for a screwplay against a thinking TAG, imo - I know I walk right into this one all the time. (Though some people use this line way too often and screwplay like 77 or KQ here...)

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I still don't understand the meaning of "screwplay."

[NinaWilliams]

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I still don't understand the meaning of "screwplay."

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call flop raise and c/r the turn.

[chesspain]

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I still don't understand the meaning of "screwplay."

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call flop raise and c/r the turn.

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I caught that, but I assumed it was related to a specific board texture for bluffing.

[milesdyson]

fwiw it's c/ring turn after having flop initiative. b/c, c/r is not a screwplay