worth a c-bet ?

werero · #1 08-10-2007, 12:08 PM

Both players are kind of fishy and likes to make loose flop piles. I'm not having good equity here but is it worth to take a stab or should i just give up?

Limit: $2/$4
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG, folds, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls, CO calls.

Flop: Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6.5SB, 3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero ?

tangled · #2 08-10-2007, 12:19 PM

you have to hit it. Ace is a scare card that you said you had pf and they said they don't have.

PF raise a little marginal IMO.

runningmarvel · #3 08-10-2007, 12:20 PM

wouldn^t it be better to just check and fold to a bet here, as the chance of someone hitting one of the cards is quite big, also theres a FD on the board, leaving you with just two outs. you get 6,5:1 which wouldn´t be enough to justify a call. Amirite?

Saikkonen · #4 08-10-2007, 12:52 PM

Isn't this a clear preflop raise. Nobody has shown strength and we have position so at least a limp should have +ev. So why not raise to get the blinds out - it is free money.Unfortunately BB call, but everybody may have folded aswell.

Now the flop comes and we have to bet here don't we? We may have the best hand or we may fold a low pocket or a some draw.

tangled · #5 08-10-2007, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this a clear preflop raise. Nobody has shown strength and we have position so at least a limp should have +ev. So why not raise to get the blinds out - it is free money.Unfortunately BB call, but everybody may have folded aswell.

Now the flop comes and we have to bet here don't we? We may have the best hand or we may fold a low pocket or a some draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I just have to disagree with you on the PF play. Fish love to protect their blinds and here you have 2 with BB posted. Plus the SB is still around. I think your fold equity is small and you have to invest 2 sb's in order to access the little PF equity you do have. You do have position, so I don't think it is awful to raise, I just think it is better to save your $ for a better spot.

On the flop you have more fold equity plus you have a chance to buy a free turn with a raise. There's a good chance you will get HU even if you don't win it outright and your hand might even hold up HU without improvement.

What to do on the turn is a better question then what to do here on the flop. (Do you keep firing if checked to HU or do you take the free card?)

If you are not going to bet the flop here, then you should not have raised PF. The first action demands the second action.

TheHip41 · #6 08-10-2007, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you have to hit it. Ace is a scare card that you said you had pf and they said they don't have.

PF raise a little marginal IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

pf easy raise.

bet the flop, check turn, fold river UI

Gurravasa · #7 08-10-2007, 02:11 PM

Always bet this flop.

Why are you talking about pf? OP raised as he's supposed to. Limping behing a poster is awful.

tangled · #8 08-10-2007, 02:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Always bet this flop.

Why are you talking about pf? OP raised as he's supposed to. Limping behing a poster is awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree limping is awful. That's my point. If I play this I have to raise and I don't want to put in 2 bets here with this hand with 2 loose players I believe are going to call. I would prefer to just wait for something better. I would raise only for value against loose players, but I don't think this hand is strong enough for that. If this were a tight table, I would consider raising.

I could be wrong though.If so, this is my lucky day because I might learn something.

let me ask, why are you raising? For value,fold equity or a combination?

Gurravasa · #9 08-10-2007, 04:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
let me ask, why are you raising? For value,fold equity or a combination?

[/ QUOTE ]

K7s on the button is a good enough hand to try and isolate a poster. If both blinds and the poster would call, hey then we have position on all of them! If you don't dare to raise K7s from the button because you think the blind are to loose, then you shouldn't play at that table at all. Why would the poster make us fold where we would raise otherwise?

Apanage · #10 08-10-2007, 07:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
let me ask, why are you raising? For value,fold equity or a combination?

[/ QUOTE ]

K7s on the button is a good enough hand to try and isolate a poster. If both blinds and the poster would call, hey then we have position on all of them! If you don't dare to raise K7s from the button because you think the blind are to loose, then you shouldn't play at that table at all. Why would the poster make us fold where we would raise otherwise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe because we no longer can steal the blinds and probably are going to be at least 3-way on to the flop.
I can´t say that it is wrong to raise K7s behind a poster but calling is equally good against loose blinds IMO. The positional advantage is still there.
If you can´t steal the blinds there is just two reasons left to raise for and that is for value and/or for fold equity later in the hand.
The former is not that important and in this hand not even possible.The latter is more important and if we now raised preflop we have a mandatory continuation bet getting 6.5:1.
If we can´t fold out people enough times in this pot getting 6.5:1 I would say that the preflop raise was a bad idea.