Best line on the turn?

[sethypooh21]

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Maybe I'm misapplying an MTT concept here, but at the level where these limps represent honest weakness, raising ATC in the BB here has got to be close to +EV, right?

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I def do not raise ATC by default. Blind stealing is not nearly important in cash games as in MTTs when your stack is 100 BBs. Its better to err on the side of checking & folding too much than on the side of stealing too much here.

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I'm not saying I would either. But it was more an illustration of why ATo is a pretty easy raise here in my inexperienced opinion.

[AZK]

I raise this preflop 99% of the time, but if you don't feel comfortable doing that yet, it's fine, it's going to have to change soon but for now, checking is fine. If you do check however, realize, you only want to play a small pot, check raising the flop doesn't do that. A lot of limit players see tptk and an opportunity to cr and get an extra bet. This is the exact opposite thinking you want in NL. If you cr here, all worse hands, Ax, 99, etc, fold and only better hands/draws call. Sometimes, even worse hands will call thinking they are good and only making your life more miserable because you have to play a bigger pot oop. I like a lead here, for pot, it makes the hand much easier to play. It's an easy turn fold and the result is probably the same if you lead flop, lead turn, but the money is going in better.

I really can't stress this enough:

LIMIT PLAYERS: RESIST THE URGE TO CHECK RAISE THE FLOP WITH ONE PAIR IN LIMPED POTS.

I think this adjustment is just as important as getting away from the mindset of TPTK being the nuts.

[MadScientist]

Yeah, check raising is over used in NL.
Raise pf. Bet flop. Take it down or get called down by a weaker ace and profit. If a set miner, 13/10/4 goes nuts and reraises you pot, EZ laydown.
If a donk goes to value stack himself with 50 bbs and reraises you (40/8/1.6), let him.
AT is great here.

[*TT*]

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I raise this preflop 99% of the time, but if you don't feel comfortable doing that yet, it's fine, it's going to have to change soon but for now, checking is fine. If you do check however, realize, you only want to play a small pot, check raising the flop doesn't do that. A lot of limit players see tptk and an opportunity to cr and get an extra bet. This is the exact opposite thinking you want in NL. If you cr here, all worse hands, Ax, 99, etc, fold and only better hands/draws call. Sometimes, even worse hands will call thinking they are good and only making your life more miserable because you have to play a bigger pot oop. I like a lead here, for pot, it makes the hand much easier to play. It's an easy turn fold and the result is probably the same if you lead flop, lead turn, but the money is going in better.

I really can't stress this enough:

LIMIT PLAYERS: RESIST THE URGE TO CHECK RAISE THE FLOP WITH ONE PAIR IN LIMPED POTS.

I think this adjustment is just as important as getting away from the mindset of TPTK being the nuts.

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Great post AZK.

My thought process -

pre-flop i am not comfortable playing OOP with a field which does not fold lightly to raises like the table I was playing on, I did not feel confident that the field would thin, so i opted to just check. I agree that the hand will play better even though its unsooted with a raise, but as you pointed out I'm still uncomfortable with playing out of position.

As for the flop c/r, my plan was to c/call because the opponents were playing loose and agressive, but my plan changed when the button bet the flop. From what i have seen of his play so far he looks for any opportunity steel reguardless of his holdiings, I decided to change my plan and instead raise to isolate, which worked yet didnt have the same results I expected.

My read on the villain was that he would bet the flop with a strong A, check behind with a weak A and a monster (a monster might be 2 pair in his eyes). I don't know yet how he would play a gutshot hand or a set because he keeps winning pots where he represents big hands seeing showdown. I also know he is very agressive and prone to steal, so I opted to bet the turn because I thought it was better than check/folding to an overbet (was I wrong?).

With these adjustments, do you still feel raise pre-flop, bet flop, check turn is the best line? I deviated from the standard, perhaps I shouldn't have?

[Squareview]

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lead flop, c/c turn. as played check turn, as played def fold to the shove. you dont have that strong of a hand and i think c/r pretty much eliminates the possibility of getting paid by a worse one in this spot.

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why would he lead flop and c/c turn...... players dont float at 100nl. i see your idea but with A 10 its a horrid line.

[AZK]

Maniac or not, a majority of your money online for low stakes and 100xbb NL comes from people playing too loose preflop/flop, not so much turn/river. Obviously you make money on the turn/river but nowhere near as much as the previous 2 streets imo because people play too loose. Because of this tendency, I like to get as much of my money in on early streets then later ones since i think my opponents make more mistakes on these streets. Despite all the info. you gave me, I would still raise this pre, it's just too good and people limp/call with crap. I understand that in the beginning you don't want to raise, but if you are only learning to play NL online, the sooner you learn to play really well in raised pots the better, since in online play most of your money is coming from raised pots vs. limped pots.

If we ignore preflop, the bet/evaluate line is still best because you are oop. The feeling of getting out played shouldn't really be significant in a limped pot because it's a limped pot, who cares. Let them take all the small pots, you should be taking all the small pots in position and out playing people in raised pots where you are the aggressor. I haven't had a chance to look over my old databases but I'd be willing to bet I limped less than 5% of the time, and a majority of those times it was for special reason (aggro blind, smart tricky limper who frequently lrrs, etc...) there's just simply no reason to. I also have an addiction to dead money, and I consider anyone that open limps in 6m as a huge fish, i'm not sure which came first but playing raised pots is so much easier for me than limped ones. I don't know if I started raising more because decisions were easier and i was making more money with this style, or if it was the other way around, but yeah, you get the idea...

[Hexadecimal]

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I raise this preflop 99% of the time, but if you don't feel comfortable doing that yet, it's fine, it's going to have to change soon but for now, checking is fine. If you do check however, realize, you only want to play a small pot, check raising the flop doesn't do that. A lot of limit players see tptk and an opportunity to cr and get an extra bet. This is the exact opposite thinking you want in NL. If you cr here, all worse hands, Ax, 99, etc, fold and only better hands/draws call. Sometimes, even worse hands will call thinking they are good and only making your life more miserable because you have to play a bigger pot oop. I like a lead here, for pot, it makes the hand much easier to play. It's an easy turn fold and the result is probably the same if you lead flop, lead turn, but the money is going in better.

I really can't stress this enough:

LIMIT PLAYERS: RESIST THE URGE TO CHECK RAISE THE FLOP WITH ONE PAIR IN LIMPED POTS.

I think this adjustment is just as important as getting away from the mindset of TPTK being the nuts.

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Great post AZK.

My thought process -

pre-flop i am not comfortable playing OOP with a field which does not fold lightly to raises like the table I was playing on, I did not feel confident that the field would thin, so i opted to just check. I agree that the hand will play better even though its unsooted with a raise, but as you pointed out I'm still uncomfortable with playing out of position.

As for the flop c/r, my plan was to c/call because the opponents were playing loose and agressive, but my plan changed when the button bet the flop. From what i have seen of his play so far he looks for any opportunity steel reguardless of his holdiings, I decided to change my plan and instead raise to isolate, which worked yet didnt have the same results I expected.

My read on the villain was that he would bet the flop with a strong A, check behind with a weak A and a monster (a monster might be 2 pair in his eyes). I don't know yet how he would play a gutshot hand or a set because he keeps winning pots where he represents big hands seeing showdown. I also know he is very agressive and prone to steal, so I opted to bet the turn because I thought it was better than check/folding to an overbet (was I wrong?).

With these adjustments, do you still feel raise pre-flop, bet flop, check turn is the best line? I deviated from the standard, perhaps I shouldn't have?

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Isolation raising is more important, and less costly in limit poker. It goes down in value in no limit because you get to set the bet size in no limit, and because you get clobbered for so many more bets when you isolate the wrong player at the wrong time. It's not something to take out of the toolbox totally, but it should definitely be done less often in NL.

[Jamougha]

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Maybe I'm misapplying an MTT concept here, but at the level where these limps represent honest weakness, raising ATC in the BB here has got to be close to +EV, right?

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Not necessarily, since there's substantially more money to play for in cash games. Reverse implied odds are the issue.

I check preflop, lead the flop. Don't checkraise with TPGK in NL.

[Hexadecimal]

Reading some of the other responses to this thread brought up something...

Limit --> NL players tend to check-raise too much.
NL --> Limit players complain nobody folds, and they can't protect their hands because they haven't learned how to use the check-raise to chase out people.

Comments?

[DeathDonkey]

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NL --> Limit players complain nobody folds, and they can't protect their hands because they haven't learned how to use the check-raise to chase out people.

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This is somewhat true but I wouldn't say its a direct comparison to the phenomenon of limit players CRing too much in NL. The reason is NL players who make this complaint are showing more of a fundamental error in understanding WHY a winning player wins at limit hold'em. It's not a "hand protection" game, it's a value betting game. NL players miss easy value bets in limit all the time. Limit players tend to over-value bet where there is no value in NL but I think the first mistake is much worse. I think that's why good players at both games feel its easier to go from limit to NL, you already know how to hand read and value bet now you just have to temper it appropriately.

-DeathDonkey