Lindsay Lohan and Rehab

[Tablerat]

Earlier in this thread you said: [ QUOTE ]
I've known people in my life who did this and they were extremely bright, articulate people. They were really into pill popping. Anyone on here want to tell me why smart people do this?

[/ QUOTE ]


Then several replies later you elaborated that: [ QUOTE ]
I've decided that I need to stop asking myself why an intelligent guy would choose to abuse drugs. The areas of the brain that govern this kind of decision making process seem to be separate from the area of the brain that is logical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you answered your own question!

Have you ever read or heard of the best-selling book Emotional Intelligence? You said there are different kinds of intelligence - and I strongly agree. Emotional intelligence really needs to be addressed as an issue separate from one's intellect or capacity for learning. It goes way beyond the limits of simply a "smart" man or woman. I have not finished the book I linked, but it really has opened my mind and way of thinking when it comes to sensitive issues like mental health and chemical dependency. Of course, not everyone dealing with these issues lacks emotional intelligence or that greater EI prevents or deters self-destructive behavior in all cases, but it is an incredibly important foundation.

I really believe that in most cases of sustained self-abuse or negative life patterns, if you had the complete and unedited history of those persons' lives, there would be so many parallels and similarities.

Have you ever watched the show "Intervention" on A&E? Each week, the show documents a person struggling with addiction leading up to a surprise intervention. In every episode, the show delves into a brief childhood history that reveals how, in my opinion, certain critical emotional tools were not provided to the child. Yet that child could still mature and develop their intellect or general intelligence and be in the top 10% of their class. Not surprisingly, what largely draws me to the program is my interest in learning about my personal emotional development and the obstacles that were unavoidable early in life. It really is fascinating.

[john voight]

[ QUOTE ]
According to her father, in addition to alchohol, she's also addicted to Oxycontin.

Has anyone here taken this drug?

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prolly 100% stronger than Hydracadone, maybe even more since vicodin really just is mild IMO. I'd assume this is as close as you get to a morphine type high (if done recreational).

I "assume" b/c I have never done morphine or heroine.

I'm assuming lindsay snorts it, so its affects could be increased, IDK. Pretty much an opiate that is a notch weaker than morphine.

[cambraceres]

My housemate regularly does OCs, and it is not at all like the other orthodox painkillers. It is jet fuel compared to morphine, and is equatable with heroine. Sometimes, he will actually speak in long chains of unintelligible jibberish and rub his head on the wall, or the chair, and will often simply sit with his eyes rolled back, rocking slightly. I do not myself do this, for health reasons, but I cannot say that this person is in any way inferior because of his destructive proclivities. He is smart, without college pulling in 100 thousand plus every year, at 27 years old. His bosses have noticed some anomalies in his behavior, but luckily he has a prescription for Vicodin and can pass off his manner in this way.

Cam

[katyseagull]

[ QUOTE ]

That said, consider also that another prevalent characteristic in the pathology of the aware is that they are often very insecure.


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I believe this is the one thing I tend to overlook and often do not pick up on. Even when I recognize this in one of my genius friends, I still cannot reconcile the fact that their intelligence cannot override this factor.


[ QUOTE ]

In a situation where there is a large amount of uncertainty, an intelligent person may well grasp the nature of the situation, but as a result of being risk averse and insecure, action is arrested. Plato's republic can largely be explained by one quote. "The better part of human wisdon is what we do with our uncertainty, not with our knowledge."

Smart individuals, due to idiosyncratic aspects of their personality can not, on the average, deal with these situations as well, that is, they cannot deal with uncertainty.



[/ QUOTE ]

I feel this is the crux of the matter right here. But again, I can't understand how a guy with a genius IQ would not want to preserve his health and life. That seems to be a basic instinct in all animals. If you know that you are harming yourself then why would you follow through with that decision? I'm not expecting you to clarify your position, Cam, I do understand what you're saying. Interesting topic for me.

And I like your ramblings and am very grateful for your point of view on this topic.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
You're equating a lack of sympathy or people being douches with people who are dumb. And the two guys example is silly, one of them already hates his job and the other one will soon, no one feels less pain or anything, just different types.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm saying one reason people are douches or lack curiosity or the ability to see outside themselves is because they're less intelligent. As to the rest, you just repeated yourself without explaining your assertion any better or refuting mine. Indeed you can't. The more ability one has to see the ramifications of things, the more chance one has to be affected by them. There's really no way that being open to more pain is going to result in anything other than a greater chance of experiencing it. Do you think dogs have religious crises?

The example was obviously fine, but you're choosing to be perverse.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Earlier in this thread you said: [ QUOTE ]
I've known people in my life who did this and they were extremely bright, articulate people. They were really into pill popping. Anyone on here want to tell me why smart people do this?

[/ QUOTE ]


Then several replies later you elaborated that: [ QUOTE ]
I've decided that I need to stop asking myself why an intelligent guy would choose to abuse drugs. The areas of the brain that govern this kind of decision making process seem to be separate from the area of the brain that is logical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you answered your own question!

Have you ever read or heard of the best-selling book Emotional Intelligence? You said there are different kinds of intelligence - and I strongly agree. Emotional intelligence really needs to be addressed as an issue separate from one's intellect or capacity for learning. It goes way beyond the limits of simply a "smart" man or woman. I have not finished the book I linked, but it really has opened my mind and way of thinking when it comes to sensitive issues like mental health and chemical dependency. Of course, not everyone dealing with these issues lacks emotional intelligence or that greater EI prevents or deters self-destructive behavior in all cases, but it is an incredibly important foundation.

I really believe that in most cases of sustained self-abuse or negative life patterns, if you had the complete and unedited history of those persons' lives, there would be so many parallels and similarities.

Have you ever watched the show "Intervention" on A&E? Each week, the show documents a person struggling with addiction leading up to a surprise intervention. In every episode, the show delves into a brief childhood history that reveals how, in my opinion, certain critical emotional tools were not provided to the child. Yet that child could still mature and develop their intellect or general intelligence and be in the top 10% of their class. Not surprisingly, what largely draws me to the program is my interest in learning about my personal emotional development and the obstacles that were unavoidable early in life. It really is fascinating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad that the idea of emotional intelligence is gaining more credence in society today, though it's still a long way from the having the acceptance and integration into popular understanding that it should.

In our competitive society, it's pretty common to push aside any considerations not related to bringing in money and think of them as inessential or even ridiculously unimportant or off point. So many leaders are extremely toxic to those around them and all but cripple their own organizations instead of getting the most out of them. People can do the same inside their own families and romantic relationships and friendships too. The applicability of emotional intelligence and need for it is enormous, yet it's not something society emphasizes, instead often feminizing the very idea of it or citing concerns about it as some sort of sign of weakness that could only impinge on the effectiveness of one's command. It's something people in power often don't want to be subject to dealing with or think they have risen above. It's probably something many leaders are terrified of having to exhibit and be judged by.

[daveT]

All the debate about emotional intellegence or whatever is reading too far.

The fact is that druggies are considered stupid. Think of the crack-head pan-handler, or the emaciated heroine addict.

There are tons of drugs that are poor-man (crack, meth), middle class (cocain, ecstacy) and rich-man (morphine). There is plenty to read on it, so I shouldn't elaborate on it.

There is a discrimination between drugs on class, inteligence level, and potency (addictiveness). Crack is considered more addictive than cocain, and heroine is considered more addictive than morphine. The reality is that a poor person is going to loose control of their life easier on a cheaper drug. The quality of the drug is not as good as the more expensive drug (you get what you pay for), but most of these drugs are all equally addictive.

An intelligent person is not going to believe that they are stupid enough to become addicted to drugs. Drugs have a stigma that only stupid people are addicted and that is how society presents most drug addicts.

The intellegent people does not know that drugs have a physical addictive property. When talking about intellegence, people forget that intellegence is only a quotient of ignorance. I guess smart people have absolutely no ignorance. When I was a bike messenger, the office workers (so educated with their big words) told me it was my fault that I was on the street. I simply told them that they could talk to my lawyer, or pay for my bike and be done with it. Only one person paid for the bike. Just a simple example.

If emotional maturity is taken on the basis that one doesn't know everything, then yes, the thinking is usable.

[Blarg]

I don't quite buy that drug addicts are considered stupid. I'd say that burn-outs are, but far from all drug addicts are burn-outs. And that's still usually at least as often because of their bad choices, not their fundamental lack of intelligence. There are stories going back centuries of very smart people who were drug addicts, alcoholics, degenerate gamblers, etc. It seems to presuppose a high level of disapproval for drugs, booze, or gambling that many people simply do not have to think it's clear that addicts are dumb.

Losing control of yourself easier on a cheaper drug doesn't quite work either. Sure, crack is cheaper than cocaine, but so is most everything else, including pot, which is vastly less addicting and disruptive than cocaine can be.

Drugs aren't all equally addictive either. The foundational impulse, to handle life by resort to things that take one away from reality and are addictive, is something all addicts probably share, though.

You kind of lost me on smart being tied to lacking ignorance. This is very incorrect. You can be brilliant and incredibly ignorant. The two often even go together.

You also lost me with the bike messenger thing. I agree that people in positions of privilege can be idiotically blinkered, smug, and ignorant about others in other circumstances and how the world really works, though, if that's what you're getting at there.

[katyseagull]

[ QUOTE ]

I really believe that in most cases of sustained self-abuse or negative life patterns, if you had the complete and unedited history of those persons' lives, there would be so many parallels and similarities.

Have you ever watched the show "Intervention" on A&E? Each week, the show documents a person struggling with addiction leading up to a surprise intervention. In every episode, the show delves into a brief childhood history that reveals how, in my opinion, certain critical emotional tools were not provided to the child. Yet that child could still mature and develop their intellect or general intelligence and be in the top 10% of their class. Not surprisingly, what largely draws me to the program is my interest in learning about my personal emotional development and the obstacles that were unavoidable early in life. It really is fascinating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post, Tablerat. Thanks for the book recommendation. I will check it out next time I'm at the bookstore. And yes, I've watched the show Intervention twice. It was very interesting but kind of sad.

I'd never heard anyone talk about emotional intelligence before but I kind of like the idea as it explains a lot. For example, there's a girl I know who has always confused the hell out of me. I can't figure her out. A lot of our mutual friends, even her own sister, dismiss her as an idiot and they can't stand to be around her because they say she has stunted growth and acts like a teenager. But I recognize her as being extremely intelligent and savvy in certain respects. I mean she's definitely not a retard. When it comes to business and finance, the girl can run circles around the rest of us. And she's able to manipulate and fool a lot of people which I think takes a certain amount of brains. She fits the model of someone who is actually exceptionally bright but with a low emotional intelligence.

One comment though. You mention that some people aren't given critical emotional tools in their childhood. I've known families with wonderful parents where all but one child grew up to be confident and well-adjusted. I'm not sure it is a question of being provided emotional tools or adequate support from the parents. I think in some instances the individual has some kind of inborn destructive streak. In other words, I don't think it's necessarily the parents fault or lack of attention. Perhaps that's not what you were implying though. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Blarg]

Things like that aren't definitive, but things do, on the whole, tend to happen for a reason.

Also, the fact that some kids can muster extraordinary resources of their own and succeed doesn't mean their environment was a good one. It just means that they got past it. Another kid might just lack the extraordinary level of extra emotional and/or intellectual gifts necessary to get past the limitations of his environment. That doesn't make that kid in any way less inherently capable than the neighbor's kid who was raised in a more stable family. He just has had to deal with much more challenges from a much less stable foundation, with what should fairly be thought of as usually predictable results. Sure, you can't blame parents for every kid and how he turns out, but that bit of homey folk wisdom is seized upon so much that we forget that it also works the other way -- kids are not really blameworthy for their parents, either. Since that opens up questions about raising kids and about our society in general rather than closing them down, making the subject less rather than more comfortable for us to look at from our secure distance, it tends to be a perspective we sweep under the carpet rather than quickly reach for and trot out when talking about how and why kids develop into the adults they do. It's easier to just figuratively bury the question with the kid and take one more thing off the plate of our own responsibilities and self-doubts.