New Fight Question

[Viscant]

That was a fun fight. I remember watching it after it had just happened (I had money on Butterbean). For the record, Genki was giving away over 200 lbs. Butterbean is listed at 350 (but I think to get to 350 at that point he would have had to chop off a leg) and Genki Sudo usually fights at 155. I still think Butterbean deserves a rematch. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Blarg]

LOL Butterbean is a titan at the smorgasbord, that's for sure. I look forward to seeing this match!

[Blarg]

I agree that everything you do sacrifices something else -- this is true of everything in the entire universe, to be sure. If you give away position, you lose something. I'm not sure that giving something away is always a bad idea. I've seen guys strike from an inch away without making noticeable movement of their hips and torso and send people flying(myself included, occasionally). Even if position were sacrificed, I could definitely see it being worth it.

However, I feel uncomfortable on two accounts saying this. First, because so few people can do anything like this, and secondly, because this is just the internet and it's probably far easier to think I'm not recounting personal experience at all, but simply being a typical internet goofball and making crap up as I go along, just to get in an argument or wear people down.

[blackize]

The evidence keeps mounting all you boxing fanboys.

[Blarg]

The evidence is always conclusive for any and every proposition. All you have to do is define evidence.

This is not conclusive; it's elementary.

Others play different games than that.

[BCPVP]

Now I just feel like posting videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnY9JsPxBvU
The more boxing saavy here will have to interpret for me the ranking here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzU0gI70kl8

Tactics wise, I just don't see what answer the boxer has for the kicks, knees/elbows, takedowns, and submissions that the mma fighter is sure to attempt.

[blackize]

We have several fights on video where the boxer stood an approximate a 0% chance to win. None of the boxing fanboys has come up with a single instance of the boxer winning or dominating and losing on a fluke.

We have anecdotal reports of boxers turned MMAers that pure boxers would be destroyed in an MMA fight. We have MMA fights where the boxer does get destroyed. We have an exhibition match with the greatest boxer of all time against a simple wrestler where it can easily be seen that should the grappler be unwilling to stand toe to toe with the boxer, the boxer will remain ineffective using just boxing methods.

The fact of the matter is that there is very little luck involved when a submission wins the fight. With knockouts you have the lucky punch. With submissions have one fighter gaining control and using superior technique to win.

Take a look at a boxing match. Take a look at their stances. They leave themselves wide open to takedowns, low kicks, and sweeps. If the boxer gets too close his power dissipates and he is at a huge disadvantage.

The boxing fanboys seem to be ignoring the fact that the ONLY way the boxer wins one of these fights is by landing a knockout punch. The MMAer can win by lucky strike, submission, or a KO from the ground. The MMAer has multiple approaches that he can take in the fight. The boxer has one.

[Zim]

I gotta get off this thread, lol.

One myth I think that deserves examining, also, is the "Martial Arts Master". Not unlike the boxer who can lay you out with one punch, the Martial Arts Master goes one better:

He can do it in an inch.

Or with a touch.

Or even with internal power.

Now, I'm a romantic at heart. I think some of the Gung Fu forms are beautiful. My first love was White Crane Gung Fu, and I can't tell you how much I wanted to believe the myths and legends were true.

But I've seen no evidence of it. Lots of argument, particularly from the students ... but no evidence. And what I have tracked down has left me even more disapointed than that Ali-Inoki clip.

Check this fight out, from 1954 between two masters. I have some info on them both, their credentials certainly appear legitimate. The circumstances of the match are a little suspect. According to my instructor, Chen Kefu was under the impression it was intially to be a light sparring demo ... that was until his nose got broke in the first few seconds.

So it goes.

In any event, here's the fight between two martial art masters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZuJBsIWl_k

Another fight between two masters was also caught on film. This one involved Bruce Lee's teacher, William Cheung, and his arch rival Emin Boztepe.

I trained under a German who was taught by Emin. In class, I was caught up in his mystique, and found myself in awe of his skill, one inch punch, and anti-grappling skills. He laughed about the Gracies (this was a few years back, when the Gracies were just emerging)

Then I found this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxflBIl3a18

***

These are crappy old clips but they all involve highly skilled traditional martial artists.

And they all look like a bunch of schoolgirls fighting. The first clip involves a White Crane master that learned directly from the Grandmaster of the system. And the seoond clip involves William Cheung, student of the great Yip Man, and teacher of Bruce Lee. He's the one on the ground getting pounded.

Not the final word, not statistically significant, and I'm sure everyone's sifu is better, but ...

Well ...

Don't believe the hype.

Best,
Z.

[Blarg]

The martial arts are definitely full of hype. But not everything is hype.

One of my teachers won a full contact WEAPONS tournament. And he won it with a broken collarbone. That's the kind of old school that matters. He had been training for almost 20 years by the time I met him when he was only in his mid-20's. I've felt and seen his inch punch numerous times, and it's far better than any others I've seen anyone else do. There are quite a few degrees even of mastery. For wht it's worth, I don't think much of many people's one inch punch now, because I've seen and felt the way it's really supposed to be done. Most inch punches are a pretty pale imitation. Really, anecdotes that one has never met anyone really good are worthless and prove nothing.

The William Cheung thing was unfortunate. He won many matches in his youth, and got jumped when he was much, much older and had declined quite a bit. Also, William Cheung was never Bruce Lee's teacher. Bruce Lee's teacher was the man who made Wing Chun's reputation in the 50's, variously attributed to have won 100 or more challenge matches with martial artists as well as some street fights, some including multiple people and weapons, and taking no losses. He and Lee were very interested in streamlining Wing Chun, an already very simple system, and Lee's own modified Wing Chun of his early days owes a great deal to him. Here's a URL on that guy:

http://www.wingchun.com/wslperson.htm

[nicky g]

Sorry if this has been said already, I can't read through the whole thing - but in response to the whole "no gloves" thing, the early UFCs and other MMA/Vale Tudo contests, there were no gloves. It changed the dynamics for sure, but in favour of the grapplers. The traditonal martial artists still fared terribly.