Casino Arizona – Floor Ruling

[NoChance]

What is the proper ruling for the following situation that happened to me last weekend?

I am sitting on the button with pocket aces. There are two limpers to me and I raise. Both the small and big blind fold and muck their cards. However, the dealer is not paying attention (is chatting with a good looking girl in the big blind) and he burns a card and puts a flop out there before the other two limpers have a chance to act.

So, I am sitting there with two bets in front of me and the two limpers both have one bet in front of them and there is already a flop. I stopped the dealer before anyone could act on the flop and pointed out that I had raised pre-flop. Everyone confirmed this (even the big blind had folded). The dealer called the floor over to make a ruling. I am curious what everyone thinks is proper way to proceed here. What is the correct ruling?

I will post his ruling later.

[Leibniz]

They should pull the flop back, complete the action, deal the flop (the burn is already down), then continue as usual.

[RayPowers]

Should it be to reshuffle flop back into the deck, have both players finish their preflop play, then burn and deal a new flop (if necessary)?

Ray

[RR]

What the others have posted about bringing the flop back is clearly correct, but I want to address the fundamental dealer error here as it is one I see far too often.

[ QUOTE ]
So, I am sitting there with two bets in front of me and the two limpers both have one bet in front of them and there is already a flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The correct procedure is to pull in the bets and then deal. The reason it is done this way it is impossible to make this mistake if you pull the bets in first.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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Should it be to reshuffle flop back into the deck, have both players finish their preflop play, then burn and deal a new flop (if necessary)?

Ray

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A good floor will first explain to the players that the flop is coming back and that it will be re-shuffled. Then he will watch the players complete the pre-flop action. Then he will supervise the re-shuffling of the deck (in most clubs the burn is left out and many dealers don't know this), wait for the flop and start the flop action. Then he walks away fast once the job is done [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
What the others have posted about bringing the flop back is clearly correct, but I want to address the fundamental dealer error here as it is one I see far too often.

[ QUOTE ]
So, I am sitting there with two bets in front of me and the two limpers both have one bet in front of them and there is already a flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The correct procedure is to pull in the bets and then deal. The reason it is done this way it is impossible to make this mistake if you pull the bets in first.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree this is the correct procedure but I've seen it done the other way so often what is correct or not gets confusing [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

[NoChance]

I explained to the floor person that I clearly raised pre-flop and there was action behind me (BB even folded). I wanted the cards to be shuffled back into the deck and give the limpers an opportunity to either, call, fold, or raise me. He said that was not the right thing to do because my opponents now know of 3 cards that would still be in the deck. I explained to him that I too would have that knowledge and that nobody was at an advantage.

The final ruling was that I had to take my raise back and we were to continue on with the flop. He explained that if this would have happened on the turn they would shuffle the card in but on the flop it is too many cards to put back in. I am not sure if this is a special rule this casino has or if this is typical.

[AngusThermopyle]

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I am not sure if this is a special rule this casino has or if this is typical.

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Not at all typical.
May not even be the rule at Casino Arizona. Floormen have been known to make mistakes or be unclear about the house rules. For future reference, you should find a pokerroom shift manager at CA and ask him the proper rule in his club (nothing he can do about it, but you will get a "more official" ruling, and he can explain to his floormen what the proper procedure is.)

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
I explained to the floor person that I clearly raised pre-flop and there was action behind me (BB even folded). I wanted the cards to be shuffled back into the deck and give the limpers an opportunity to either, call, fold, or raise me. He said that was not the right thing to do because my opponents now know of 3 cards that would still be in the deck. I explained to him that I too would have that knowledge and that nobody was at an advantage.

The final ruling was that I had to take my raise back and we were to continue on with the flop. He explained that if this would have happened on the turn they would shuffle the card in but on the flop it is too many cards to put back in. I am not sure if this is a special rule this casino has or if this is typical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he is confusing this situation with one that is nothing at like it except it deals with flops. Some rooms have a rule that if the big blind does not exercise their option to raise prior to the dealer flopping that the dealer loses that option (the reasoning being that it would be too much of an advantage to just keep quiet about not being offered the chance to raise if they got a flop they liked).

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]

The final ruling was that I had to take my raise back and we were to continue on with the flop. He explained that if this would have happened on the turn they would shuffle the card in but on the flop it is too many cards to put back in. I am not sure if this is a special rule this casino has or if this is typical.

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Sounds like a good nut kicking is in order. First to the floorman, then to the dealer. Then steal the dealer's girlfriend.