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#1
11-21-2006, 12:02 AM
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TT vs EP Raise Late in Sunday Million
Converted by PokerGeek
PokerStars NL Hold'em Tournament - 8000/16000 Blinds (8 handed) I played the first 4 hrs at the same table...got moved here maybe 7-10 hands before this hand went down. I put UTG+1 on a big hand since he raised 1/3 of his stack from EP, I thought about reraising to islolate...but what hands do I beat that would call an EP raise behind me? When the SB moved in, it was hard for me to say this is AK and call w/ a small edge for the sidepot. Squeezing makes no sense here w/ no FE against UTG+1. I think if I was the SB (with these size stacks) I would move-in w/ JJ-AA since a RR to 150-200K just turns the hand face-up and lets me fold hands like 99 and TT. Any good alternatives to calling and folding? Starting Stacks Seat 2: Small blind (T352133) Seat 3: BB (T102491) Seat 4: UTG (T544920) Seat 5: UTG+1 (T157440) Seat 6: MP (T447897) Seat 7: LP (T204930) Seat 8: CO (T269404) Seat 9: Button (Hero) (T383366) Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 raises (48000), <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls (48000), Small blind all-in (351333), <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 all-in (108640), Hero folds. 
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#3
11-21-2006, 04:33 AM
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Re: TT vs EP Raise Late in Sunday Million
If I am reading this hand correctly (no converter makes it hard to read), this is definately a push or fold spot.
You are on the button, with only the blinds left to act. If you think that your 1010 is ahead of UTG+1's range, then push it. If you think you are behind his range, then you shouldn't call (you don't have the right odds for set value). Since you have no reads, you really have nothing to help your decision. Against random opponents, a push here has to be +EV. If you want to fold, go for it. Just don't call. The only player here that has you covered is the SB, and he needs a HUGE hand to call your push, which means he will almost always be folding. Edit: With no reads, I would push this in a heartbeat the first time the action got to me. UTG+1 should be pushing here. His raise either means: A) He does have AA/KK and wants action, or B) He is a donk who will fold to your push or call with a worse hand (most likely answer). Also, if you lose the hand to UTG+1, you would still have over 10 BBs. Edit2: Calling and folding in these types of spots is a great way to bleed chips in MTTs.
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#4
11-21-2006, 05:01 AM
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Re: TT vs EP Raise Late in Sunday Million
[ QUOTE ]
If I am reading this hand correctly (no converter makes it hard to read), this is definately a push or fold spot. You are on the button, with only the blinds left to act. If you think that your 1010 is ahead of UTG+1's range, then push it. If you think you are behind his range, then you shouldn't call (you don't have the right odds for set value). Since you have no reads, you really have nothing to help your decision. Against random opponents, a push here has to be +EV. If you want to fold, go for it. Just don't call. The only player here that has you covered is the SB, and he needs a HUGE hand to call your push, which means he will almost always be folding. Edit: With no reads, I would push this in a heartbeat the first time the action got to me. UTG+1 should be pushing here. His raise either means: A) He does have AA/KK and wants action, or B) He is a donk who will fold to your push or call with a worse hand (most likely answer). Edit2: Calling and folding in these types of spots is a great way to bleed chips in MTTs. [/ QUOTE ] I understand your point and I hope that you realize that I didn't call for "set value" and I didn't intend to fold if UTG+1 moved in on the flop, but think about it...if he has AK and is not pushing this preflop (terrible play), he might check it to me if he misses. If an ace or a king flops then what hands do I beat? How would you play AA or KK here? I still don't think that the flatcall invites SB to make a move here. Do you really think that he would move in to isolate UTG+1 w/any hands that I beat here? And how would you play JJ-AA from the SB here? I don't think that I need to move in to isloate or to protect my hand here, moving in does not show strength, and will not stop SB from calling with hands that beat mine.
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#5
11-21-2006, 05:08 AM
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Re: TT vs EP Raise Late in Sunday Million
[ QUOTE ]
How would you play AA or KK here? [/ QUOTE ] The only hands you could play the way you played it and be correct are AA or KK. [ QUOTE ] I still don't think that the flatcall invites SB to make a move here. [/ QUOTE ] If the SB is a really good player, he may push a wide range of hands here, actually, IMO. [ QUOTE ] I understand your point and I hope that you realize that I didn't call for "set value" and I didn't intend to fold if UTG+1 moved in on the flop, but think about it... [/ QUOTE ] If this is true, and I suspect it is not, then why WOULDN'T you push the first time PF?
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#6
11-21-2006, 05:31 AM
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Re: TT vs EP Raise Late in Sunday Million
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] How would you play AA or KK here? [/ QUOTE ] The only hands you could play the way you played it and be correct are AA or KK. [ QUOTE ] I still don't think that the flatcall invites SB to make a move here. [/ QUOTE ] If the SB is a really good player, he may push a wide range of hands here, actually, IMO. Just wondering how it could be EV+ or cEV+ for a good player to shove a "wide range" here...do u agree he has no FE against UTG+1? You haven't mentioned any range for UTG+1, you seem to just gloss over the fact that he has hand here. I know you've been around for longer than me, and I respect you opinion, but a good player is not squeezing here. [ QUOTE ] I understand your point and I hope that you realize that I didn't call for "set value" and I didn't intend to fold if UTG+1 moved in on the flop, but think about it... [/ QUOTE ] If this is true, and I suspect it is not, then why WOULDN'T you push the first time PF? [/quote And this is funny...are you saying that I think I'm getting the right price to call for set value here...with implied odds of 3 to 1?...c'mon now...
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#7
11-21-2006, 06:03 AM
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Re: TT vs EP Raise Late in Sunday Million
[ QUOTE ]
Just wondering how it could be EV+ or cEV+ for a good player to shove a "wide range" here...do u agree he has no FE against UTG+1? You haven't mentioned any range for UTG+1, you seem to just gloss over the fact that he has hand here. I know you've been around for longer than me, and I respect you opinion, but a good player is not squeezing here. [/ QUOTE ] The problem is that you have no reads. I never said that you or the SB has no FE against UTG+1 (you did). Let's assume that UTG+1 is not a very good player (which it appears could be the case since he didn't push with a 10 BB stack). If so, the SB would know this and may very well think he has tons of FE against him and you (the weak looking caller who is afraid of what the SB might have). If he is a very good player, he would know that pushing overtop of both of you looks VERY stong and if he did have a read on UTG+1 as being weak, he may do this with almost any 2 cards. [ QUOTE ] And this is funny...are you saying that I think I'm getting the right price to call for set value here...with implied odds of 3 to 1?...c'mon now... [/ QUOTE ] Note that I put "I didn't intend to fold if UTG+1 moved in on the flop" in bold. I meant that I do not think that you called with the intention of never folding to UTG+1's flop push. You're telling me that if the flop came AK2 and he pushed, you would call? If so, then there is absolutely no reason at all not to push PF. You can't be scared that the SB might wake up with AA. That is a risk that you have to be willing to take when you push, since the chance of that is so small.
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#8
11-21-2006, 06:16 AM
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Re: TT vs EP Raise Late in Sunday Million
What I was saying was only hypothetical. It may very well be that the SB has AA here and UTG+1 is a solid player with a strong hand who is just trying to get someone to push overtop of him. Either this, or what I described above is the case.
My whole point is that you have to either push or fold this hand PF. By simply calling, you are opening up the door to a difficult spot. You can't just go around calling off huge chunks of your stack and folding to reraises. In this spot, you should either decide to push the hand and isolate UTG+1 or fold.
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#9
11-21-2006, 11:34 AM
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Re: TT vs EP Raise Late in Sunday Million
I agree thst this is push/fold preflop and calling is the worst option.
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