big pocket pairs in L08

mutigers5591 · #1 07-17-2006, 03:29 PM

im mostly a microlimit hold em player but i started playing 2 cent /4 cent limit omaha/8 and either im getting lucky or there are a lot more fish in the microlimits of omaha cuz ive been making more money in omaha. I would say my biggest flaw is playing hands that have a mediocre low possibility and a high pocket pair IE KKA4. It seems like if i dont catch trips i never have the best hand and im always drawing to the low that may or may not be good anyway. Any tips on how to play Big pocket pairs or maybe im overestimating there value alot b/c it seems like 99's and kk's are pretty much the same thing since unimproved there not gonna win anyway. Links or comments would be appreciatied for this omaha newbie
Edit- one more question... Another big flaw in my game is playing the nuts off the flop b/c it seems like the turn or river always brings someone a better full house or s/t. Should i be more conservative with the nuts or bet, b/c im afraid when i bet so aggressively it is giving the chasers the right odds to draw, but on the same note i do have the nuts.

Buzz · #2 07-17-2006, 09:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
it seems like 99's and kk's are pretty much the same thing.....

[/ QUOTE ]5591 - They don't seem the same to me. Not at all.[ QUOTE ]
since unimproved there not gonna win anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]A slight exaggeration, but I have to agree that they're not going to win much unimproved in a full loose game.

However, when they do improve, kings full will win more pots and lose fewer pots than nines full. And a set of kings also has a better chance than a set of nines.

Kings full beat queens full, jacks full, tens full, and nines full.
Nines full lose to all of these and, in addition, lose to kings full.

[ QUOTE ]
Any tips on how to play Big pocket pairs

[/ QUOTE ]I assume you wonder how to play, for example, a starting hand containing a pair of kings before the flop.

If so, the pair of kings are just part of your four starting cards. All four cards matter. <ul type="square">K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is a poor starting hand - and I wouldn't generally pay to see the flop with it.

However, K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is quite a nice, very playable starting hand. If I felt certain that an opponent held A2XY or A3XY, I might not play it, but otherwise I really want to see the flop with it, and then go from there[/list]
I am of the opinion that you can raise (or not) before the flop with just about any hand you choose to play. Whether I choose to raise or not entirely depends on what I think the effect will be on my opponents - or maybe just one or two opponents.

Generally I wouldn't raise with 23KKd, but if I thought raising would cause an opponent to mis-read my hand and consequently possibly mis-play his hand, I might raise with it. Or I'd raise if I thought I could steal the blinds (almost unheard of in a loose, low limit ring game - but common in a tight tournament situation).

But mostly in a typical full, loose ring game I'd just limp with 23KKd, and almost every other playable hand I might be dealt.

And I would fold 78KKn.

What about 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? Well.... that hand, 2399d, simply doesn't look anywhere near as nice as the 23KKd hand. However, I might play it for a half bet from the small blind, and I might raise with it if I thought there was a reasonable possibility I could get away with a steal. And I might call a single bet from the button if I was very certain there would not be a raise from the blinds. But I'd be playing the hand from the small blind or the button mainly to try to create the illusion that I'm not as tight as I actually am. Honestly, you'll probably do better if you simply fold all hands with a pair of nines except maybe
A299-non-rainbow,
AA99-non-rainbow, or
A399-suited-to-the-ace.

Buzz

mutigers5591 · #3 07-17-2006, 11:32 PM

thanks for the help it seems like my problem is thinking a hand like kk78 is playable in the first place sounds like i need to tighten up more

Pnigro · #4 07-17-2006, 11:54 PM

aahhh...micro/low limit omaha 8/b, that's where I'm good at.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like if i dont catch trips i never have the best hand and im always drawing to the low that may or may not be good anyway. Any tips on how to play Big pocket pairs or maybe im overestimating there value alot b/c it seems like 99's and kk's are pretty much the same thing since unimproved there not gonna win anyway.

Another big flaw in my game is playing the nuts off the flop b/c it seems like the turn or river always brings someone a better full house or s/t. Should i be more conservative with the nuts or bet, b/c im afraid when i bet so aggressively it is giving the chasers the right odds to draw, but on the same note i do have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pocket pairs are overrated. If you don't hit trips, you're probably not gonna win. You need to hit the flop.

Avoid middle pocket pairs like 77-88-99 and such, they are not very profitable.

Even if you hit trips, you're very vulnerable. Most of the time you want top trips, that way if the board pairs you're gonna win the high.

Here's my advice:

A) If you hit top trips and there is a low draw that you don't have, be careful and hope the board pairs. You probably won't scoop.

Example: You have JJQK and flop is J-3-5. Bet/call until the river unless you sense someone hit a straight with any of the two cards left. When that happens, check/call and fold to 2 bets cold.

B) If you hit top trips and there is a low draw that you DO have, be aggressive, you have protection.

Example: You have KK24 and flop is K-3-5. You can bet with more confidence than the last example. If no one has A2 or A4, you're favorite. If someone has A2, they might get counterfeited. If someone has A2 and a 4 doesn't fall, you still get half the pot. If no low comes, you scoop. I think you get the point.

Also, if you have KKA4 for example and the flop comes K-2-3, well, it's time to masturbate. Transform into Mr.Aggression. Never slow play, that's for hold'em, not for full ring low limit omaha 8/b games.

C) If you hit top trips and there is no low draw, be aggresive, you're favorite.

For example: you hold KKQA and flop is K-9-2. I think this one's pretty obvious.

D) If you hit top trips and there is an obvious straight draw or a flush draw, be aggressive, make them pay, but SLOW DOWN (check/call) if a scary card comes in the turn or river.

E) If you hit top trips and there is a MADE straight or flush you can either be aggressive (for image purposes and scoop a big pot if the board pairs due to implied odds), check/call (just hoping for the board to pair) or fold (wait for better opportunities).

For example: You have KK23 and flop is K-Q-J and they are betting like crazy. First guy bets, second one raises, third guy re-raises then it's your turn. Let's say it's obvious that 1 or 2 of them have the straight. Well, you can either RAISE (to build the pot and a scoop a big one if the board pairs, because of the implied odds, they probably won't be able to lay down the flopped straight), you can FOLD (save those 3 bets and wait for a better opportunity) or you can CALL (which is weak imo).

Remember all that and play trips more like a drawing hand and you'll do fine.

There you go, "How to play flopped trips in LO8" by Pnigro.

Avoid hands like 88JJ not suited.

Play high pocket pairs that can produce a straight, have a low or are double suited like KKJQ or QQ23 or KKJ10 or 99JQ double suited. In omaha you need to look at the FOUR cards, not just 2.

wiseheart · #5 07-18-2006, 12:11 AM

For all the naysayers:
BOOM
PokerStars (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of 150.
1 fold, MP1 calls, Hero calls, 2 folds, SB (poster) completes, BB raises, MP1 calls, Hero calls, SB folds.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, BB raises, MP1 calls 1623 (All-In), Hero calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot:

Results in white below: 
MP1 has Qs Qc 2c Ac (High: two pair, queens and sixes).
Hero has 5c Kd 4h Ks (High: two pair, kings and sixes).
BB has 7s 4c Ah 2d (High: one pair, sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins . 

Too bad AA2x < 8TTx TWICE
against the same donk...ugh..

Buzz · #6 07-18-2006, 08:15 AM

pnegro - Good advice. Just one thing.

[ QUOTE ]
For example: You have KK23 and flop is K-Q-J and they are betting like crazy.

[/ QUOTE ]When you have KK23 and the flop is KQJ, figure the board will pair and you'll win very close to one time in three. (And you'll lose the other two times out of three). That's an oversimplification, but rather close to reality.

So every bet you put in the pot that is matched by exactly two other players is roughly a break even bet for you. Over the long haul, when you have exactly two opponents, you're going to win two dollars for every two dollars you lose on the betting round immediately following the flop.

Thus when you have more than two opponents, for example three opponents, each matching each buck you put into the pot, you have a favorable situation for betting or raising.

However, when you only have one opponent matching each buck you put into the pot, assuming that one opponent has flopped the straight, then you have an unfavorable situation for betting or raising. You can put the one bet in, but shouldn't do any raising with only one opponent.

Thus what's best to do is entirely dependent on how many opponents who are going to match your bet. With only one, you do better to check/call. With two, you do better to bet and raise. With three you want to try to make sure you don't lose anybody.

The situation is a bit more complicated, because of future betting rounds. But basically, so long as you have at least two opponents matching your bet, you can be sure you have a good bet here. And the more the merrier.

And the more the merrier on future betting rounds too - in case the board pairs and you end up with a winner. So whatever you can do to maximize the number of opponents who will be matching your bets is what you should do. That may involve raising, but it also may involve not raising - depending on how your opponents will react to a double or triple bet. You should rather get three opponent dollars into the pot for your one than four opponent dollars into the pot for your two.

Nobody can tell you ahead of time exactly how to get the most opponent dollars into the pot on the current betting round plus the next two betting rounds. It just depends on your particular opponents.

But at any rate, you have favorable odds to initiate money into the pot when you have two opponents (and your hand is 23KK and the board is JQK). However, it may take a deft touch to extract the maximum amount from your opponents on the second betting round and then also on the third betting round, and then if either the turn card or river card is favorable, again on the fourth betting round.

I'm not saying don't raise. I'm saying be thinking about how you can get the maximum out of your opponents. That may involve just calling on the second betting round (or it may involve raising).

You should continue here even with only one opponent, but should you limp or raise?? Well, yes, one of those.

Buzz

Pnigro · #7 07-18-2006, 10:54 PM

Agree completely.

T50_Omaha8 · #8 07-19-2006, 01:51 AM

I once wondered about one question you asked--whether the fragile flopped nuts--ie nut straights, top sets, etc, should always be bet. I posted a hand on here a while back in which I held an AKxx with a flop of Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] , and I held neither hearts nor clubs. I'm pretty sure I was playing full ring .25/.50 back then. Well it was bet to me and I raised, got one caller, and it was reraised to me, so I capped the flop, with the flat caller calling the cap.

The turn came a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] , making the probability my nut straight wouldn't be the nuts on the river well over 50%. Still, I capped the card with my fingers crossed. A third club came off and I called on the river; the idiot bettor showed down a naked nut club flush draw, hit on the river. I checked the hand history and the moron flat caller held a QT. So it turns out I was getting my money into a great spot after all.

But that is the kind of thing that will seldom happen once you move up and dollar bets get invovled in the game. The hands I was against are actually the WORST (ie best for me) hands I could realistically expect to be against, and I STILL lost. A more normal situation would be AKxx betting with me and QQ, JJ, or TT calling along. You could even be against nightmare hands like A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] , in which case you might as well just set your wallet on fire because an unlikely river that holds your striaght up will still only earn half the pot.

Maybe the moral of the story is that at the micro stakes level, probably up to the .25/.50 game, you should pretty much never slow down on the high nuts. But in bigger games, capping flops like

6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

or

3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] with K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

will kill you in the LR if the action is multiway, especially since 99.9% of the time you're only in the running for half the pot anyways. These flops suggest why big pocket pairs are so much less valuable than A2 as a holding. (If you hold the A2 in place of KK in either of those situations, you should obviously bet whenever you possibly can, and gleefully welcome flat callers.)

But note one hopeless element of my broadway flop. No matter what cards came off on the turn and river, my hand could NOT improve by the river. Whether I had a pair or backdoor flush draw in my hand I would have been better off because I have some faint hope of a 'plan B'.

Any set or two pair can fill up, but a flopped nut sriaght or flush cannot improve--you only welcome cards from the deck that do not counterfeit your hand. This also strongly suggests that in non-nut situations--like flopped baby flushes or non-nut straights--you should almost always fold if the action becomes stiff. Even if you do hold the best hand--which you will sometimes--you will still often get drawn out on anyways. The combined likelyhood of someone holding a better hand and 4th or 5th street scare cards coming along makes your hand -EV, in my opinion.