Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Pre-Flop - Page 10

adanthar · #91 09-19-2005, 07:40 PM

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Similarly, people are worried about MJ restealing with air. Well sure, he could, but a raise from him is a lot more likely if you limp than if you raise. After all, unless you've been playing wild poker, he has no reason to sense weakness in your raise.

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His raise, by itself, is not a problem at all. It is playing a very big pot after that raise (or reraise) that is the main concern. If he wants to raise two cards and then lead most flops, I'm more than happy to let him.

Look at where the betting impetus is after your raise as opposed to after your limp/his raise; if you don't get what I mean, check the other thread. Who really has position there, you or him?

fnurt · #92 09-19-2005, 07:43 PM

Oh, if you call and MJ raises, you want to call it? I don't love calling raises with a trap hand like AJ, suited or not. When he has a real hand, doesn't that get awfully expensive?

I'm not saying it's clearly wrong to call such a raise, but the point of raising in the first place is that I'd rather give the other guys something to think about, rather than let them give me something to think about.

curtains · #93 09-19-2005, 07:43 PM

Worrying about the SB is kind of silly right now IMO. He has a random 2 cards.

curtains · #94 09-19-2005, 07:46 PM

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I'd rather give the other guys something to think about, rather than let them give me something to think about.

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This is why I prefer raising more than like 450-550, because you want people to have to make decisions instead of making moves that make all their decisions simple.

I suggested a raise to 600-650, but it's possible that raising to 750 is more effective as it really makes it harder for the cutoff to just call you offhand, considering his large stack.

Anyway I think the quoted sentence above is very important in tournament poker and is the reason why I don't personally like the smaller raises in this situation.

Steve Chase · #95 09-19-2005, 07:47 PM

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For those of you saying raise, what's so bad about taking a flop with stacks so deep? We've got 77BB and CO covers.

I think CO's most likely holding is a PP or suited connectors. With stacks this deep, we don't want to take the lead against these hands as this will make flop play very difficult--obviously, CO could set on basically any flop, and most flops contain a draw or two.

Factor in the fact that CO's read is tight (of course, I'd prefer a more specific read about CO's limping vs. raising habits) and could be trapping, and I think this is an easy call.

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Since CO is on a wide range of hand, a raise will narrow down his hand for us. It is easier to play against a narrowed range of hand.

The CO is tight, most likely he will miss the flop. It is easy to win the pot with a continuation bet since he is tight.

So a raise is the best option here unless MJ is a very loose player and you have a good chance to get reraised by MJ. If there is a good MJ to reraise Hero, I would call here and MJ does the raise.

fnurt · #96 09-19-2005, 07:53 PM

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So a raise is the best option here unless MJ is a very loose player and you have a good chance to get reraised by MJ. If there is a good MJ to reraise Hero, I would call here and MJ does the raise.

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This is a good point and it ties into what adanthar and I were saying above. If the pro in the blinds is a super-aggro player who will raise a high percentage of the time when you just limp, then I see a strong argument for limping and calling his raise when it does come. On the other hand, if the pro is simply a solid player who is capable of raising but can't be depended on, I would rather raise and make him disinclined to play the hand at all.

I know the pro has a random 2 cards but I am enough of a fish that I am constantly worried about the name pro at my table, especially when he is to my left. I don't want to play a guessing game against a better player, especially with a tweener hand like AJs.

adanthar · #97 09-19-2005, 07:53 PM

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Oh, if you call and MJ raises, you want to call it? I don't love calling raises with a trap hand like AJ, suited or not. When he has a real hand, doesn't that get awfully expensive?

I'm not saying it's clearly wrong to call such a raise, but the point of raising in the first place is that I'd rather give the other guys something to think about, rather than let them give me something to think about.

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I don't think there's much to think about at all when you limp and he raises: you're ahead of his raising range with 2 LP limpers, so you call. If he has a real hand, cool, we'll play poker and I have position on him.

When you make it 600 and he makes it either 1500 or 2K, are you calling? Because you're still folding the best hand a lot and I think deciding what to do there is much harder.

curtains · #98 09-19-2005, 07:54 PM

Okay, its just not my experience that "name pro" players will be constantly raising out of the blinds and out of position in deep stacked games.

curtains · #99 09-19-2005, 07:56 PM

I don't think we should be so worried about this guy raising a limper and a raiser with nothing. Do you think he's sitting around worrying about everyone else bluffing him out preflop early in the touranment? I think that paranoia like this does not help one's chances.

SossMan · #**100** 09-19-2005, 08:01 PM

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Okay, its just not my experience that "name pro" players will be constantly raising out of the blinds and out of position in deep stacked games.

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I've played twice w/ Miami John now in large buy in events. Both times he was to my direct left. He is the definition of solid pro who knows values. IMO, if I raise to t600, he's not playing less than a pair or AQ out of position, not closing the action preflop. If he was on the button, it's a different story.