$114 hand vs. Ryanghall

[Sykes]

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Hold that point.

I think it's pretty hard to assume that anyone is folding QQ here so it really doesn't matter.

Ryan

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Obv. But you do see what I'm getting at also, hence why folding JJ here is the best move.

[suzzer99]

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[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] to Ryan, Paster, and Pooh.

Ironically though, if ryan knows who you are, you COULD push here and have him call with only KK/AA here. Some level 3 thinking here. But this is also the biggest variance move you can make.

But thank you, paster for discussing my point. I just thought it would be obvious to someone like suzzer to see my logic.

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Dude apparently:

a) ryan very likely should have pushed QQ and

b) eagles, who is a good player, thought the same way I did in the hand

Just because it turned out ryan had QQ doesn't invalidate the thinking. Can you see that?

[Pudge714]

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Hold that point.

I think it's pretty hard to assume that anyone is folding QQ here so it really doesn't matter.

Ryan

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It is very hard to assume anyone is folding QQ here, however based on your posts here I would give you credit to fold QQ here most of the time. I would shove a much bigger range against you than against an unknown.

[Pasterbator]

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But I think you can also make a case for ryan's range being a lot wider than that,

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I dont think you can, for the same reason that his EP open raise range isnt wide.

From Ryan's perspective - here is an example:

While he's confident that his 88 (which you say is a possible hand) is WAAAY ahead of shorty's range, he still has 7 players left to act behind him, and getting reraised is a terrible situation when he has already put in almost 20% of his stack. So he would need to fold mediocre hands.

Get it?

[suzzer99]

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Personally I'm not flatcalling QQ there. A lot of ragged ace and some king hands will call you, also mid-pairs calling for set value who can get away from a high flop

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Suz, the blinds are 30, the raise is to 235...think about it some more.

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UTG's raise may mean nothing. Ryan knows this. Many others know ryan knows this. This loosens their range. Can you all at least acknowledge that concept?

You've never gotten more than one flatcaller in a situation like this? Hell if I'm in the blinds and I have 2 callers in front I might call for set value. The important thing is stack size, not blind size. So you add the pot + stacking at least one person, you're getting ok odds to call for a set.

Also when you flatcall, you leave the door open for someone to push. Although obviously anyone other than a 2p2er pushes, ryan calls. I think, as ryan said, it's arguable whether flatcalling QQ is the right play, which means it's arguable to assume ryan has QQ. That's all I've been saying, and the fact that ryan had QQ doesn't invalidate it. I think I would probably shove QQ-KK there, flatcall AQ, AK, JJ, maybe TT. AA I might shove or flatcall, depends on the table dynamics.

[Pasterbator]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hold that point.

I think it's pretty hard to assume that anyone is folding QQ here so it really doesn't matter.

Ryan

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It is very hard to assume anyone is folding QQ here, however based on your posts here I would give you credit to fold QQ here most of the time. I would shove a much bigger range against you than against an unknown.

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That would be really bad. He definitely has a tight range here, so more often than not, he's going to have AA/KK/QQ AND NOT FOLD. I doubt he's folding QQ on a regular basis, but against this particular opponent who's range seems to be JJ+, AK, its a good fold.

[Pudge714]

Ryanghall and Eagles could you please answer the following questions.

What is UTG's pushing range
What is Ryanghall's calling range

[ryanghall]

What means more is the fact that there's 7 or something players left to act behind you when you're already planning on committing 9 or so big blinds. You have to have a hand to call here.

The problem with shoving QQ is that is does not extract much except from hands that beat you.

So you either win 300 or you lose 1500.

Ryan

[pooh74]

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While he's confident that his 88 (which you say is a possible hand) is WAAAY ahead of shorty's range, he still has 7 players left to act behind him, and getting reraised is a terrible situation when he has already put in almost 20% of his stack. So he would need to fold mediocre hands.


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This sums it up very nicely. NH

[suzzer99]

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[ QUOTE ]
But I think you can also make a case for ryan's range being a lot wider than that,

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think you can, for the same reason that his EP open raise range isnt wide.

From Ryan's perspective - here is an example:

While he's confident that his 88 (which you say is a possible hand) is WAAAY ahead of shorty's range, he still has 7 players left to act behind him, and getting reraised is a terrible situation when he has already put in almost 20% of his stack. So he would need to fold mediocre hands.

Get it?

[/ QUOTE ]

See my pervious post. I wouldn't put 88 in the range. AQ+, TT+, maybe some reduced chance of a few wider hands. So eagles shoves it's going to fold out only the hands he has beat, except in this rare case when it folded QQ. Obviously no one bank on that. So let's see, eagles flatcalls, has no idea where he stands on any flop that doesn't have a J. Yeah that's pretty yucky. I can see a fold if ryan's range is really as above. I'm converted on that.

I still am not nuts about ryan's call though. Maybe I am stuck in $27s thinking though, where you can expect a couple callers here and also lots of PPs to call a shove. I'm willing to say that flatcalling is ok when you will very likely not get a bunch more flatcallers. Although folding to a shove is not so good IMO. I think eagles was thinking more like I am, that ryan's range is wider, therefore ryan should have called.

I'm just saying neither ryan's actions nor eagle's are exactly a slam dunk either way, like some posters in this thread are making it sound.