Poker Tracker is your opponents biggest edge?

[Skuzzy]

I've been playing a lot recently at a site with no hand histories and therefore no poker tracker support. At first I was a little nervous, I was so used to the stats I felt like i'd lost one of my senses. Strangely, my winrate is nearly 3x what it is at Party or Stars. Sample size not withstanding I offer the following hypothesis for your consideration:

Poker tracker benefits the bad players more than the good players. Or put another way, poker tracker tends to reduce the edge skilled players have.

I am very interested in all opinions. I am always looking to get an edge - isn't that why we started using tools like poker tracker anyway? - but if it's at all possible I am giving up something by playing where many players will be using Poker tracker then I may have to re-think my position.

[Isura]

I don't use it anymore during the game.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
but if it's at all possible I am giving up something by playing where many players will be using Poker tracker then I may have to re-think my position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah. I play on Party without PT and I don't feel like I am giving up ANY edge. I can 4-table fine without it, and my reads and hand reading has become better. I spend more time actually watching each hand, instead of dazing off and only paying attention during my hand.

[Skuzzy]

I think that supports my contention. As a good player you can use or not use poker tracker, there is relatively little in it. But for a poor player, poker tracker may be all that lies between them and BUSTO!

I contend that poker tracker gives you relatively little, but gives THEM a lot. So, if there is no poker tracker support at a site you gain a greater edge. It's not that you give up any edge by not using poker tracker, you give up the edge by playing with poor players who use poker tracker, whether you use it or not is immaterial. They gain a lot from it. So poker tracker does what sites like Party want, it keeps the dead money in the game longer and makes it harder for you and me to get the money.

[mudbuddha]

you really think a poor player can even wield the information that poker tracker presents to them??????.

i dont know. being able to extract useful data outta a database of numbers is a skill on its own.

[Dan Bitel]

I think that the main thing is with poker tracker, is that it only gives you statistical reads, but nothing to do with betting pattern/amounts. So too many players use PT for all their reads.

IMO, if you use PT and also pay attention, make notes and make non-PT reads, then using PT is a lot more +EV than not

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that supports my contention. As a good player you can use or not use poker tracker, there is relatively little in it. But for a poor player, poker tracker may be all that lies between them and BUSTO!

I contend that poker tracker gives you relatively little, but gives THEM a lot. So, if there is no poker tracker support at a site you gain a greater edge. It's not that you give up any edge by not using poker tracker, you give up the edge by playing with poor players who use poker tracker, whether you use it or not is immaterial. They gain a lot from it. So poker tracker does what sites like Party want, it keeps the dead money in the game longer and makes it harder for you and me to get the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post, and I agree with your thoughts. I fish all sites would ban PAHUD/PT etc during game play (you can't run PT while playing on Party).

[mikechops]

I play quite a bit at Doyle's room. Until recently PT wouldn't import their hand histories. I wrote my own utility program to convert their HHs into a Party Poker format that PT could read, and used GT+ to give me a HUD overlay.

I was convinced that this gave me an edge over players without PT support. I half considered putting the program out as a donation to the poker community. But I always had 2nd thoughts and along the lines of "I wanna keep a good thing to myself, Bwwaaahahahaha."

A month or so ago (?), the latest PT patch imported Doyle's Room HHs. I thought the games would get tougher as a result of either hoards of new players armed with PT, or the regulars buying a copy. To my surprise, it hasn't worked out like that at all. Either people aren't using it, or it isn't helping their game as much as I thought it would.

I have also played Stars a lot this month. I started playing because of a bonus offer and stuck around because the games were soft compared to Doyle's room - this is my perception over 3k hands. It could be it is skewed because I get to see the junk these donkeys call me down with and you can't see what they have at Doyle's, unless they choose to show you. But for now I would maintain Stars games are softer than Doyle's and I am fairly sure the use of PT or Poker Office is higher at Stars, if for no other reason than the support has been there longer.

So I guess my conclusion is that PT isn't helping the fish out as much as I thought it might. I think I would agree with Isura that most of the use of PT - for me anyway - is in being able to play back hands away from the table rather than tracking your opponents. But I don't usually play more than 3-4 tables. If I played 8, I might have a different view.

[dalerobk]

When Party and its skins split I moved to UB. On Empire I had extensive notes on a huge number of players. At UB, I never bothered to start taking notes. Within a couple weeks I was winning huge just by reading hands on a one by one basis. I decided not to make any player notes and just keep on as I had. Six months later and I'm still winning pretty big and more consistently than I ever did on Empire/Party. In fact, I've yet to have a down month on UB. I think the reason is that I was over analyzing and over reading my hands. I think that lead me to make some dumb calls and dumb folds--as well as plenty of dumb bluffs. In other words, maybe it's not that your opponents have less of an edge without Pokertracker, but rather that you are not out thinking yourself by using Pokertracker. So maybe it's not your opponents play that has changed but yours.

[Skuzzy]

That was my first thought. I was forced to pay more attention, I was judging players on their actions and not on some statistic. In essence I was playing better poker.

My ego liked that, so I liked that, but I think it was a bit too self indulgent. I think it's partly true that i play better, and am more focused as a result of not having poker tracker support, but I think the real difference is that the guy calling me has no idea how I play, he has no stats that read 20/9/3 and make him wary of calling me.