Too loose on the later streets vs folding the winning hand

[jively]

Hey guys,

I've hit 10K hands at $0.50/$1 full ring. I could do a full stats post, but it looks like a lot of my stats are OK except being "too loose on the later streets." BB/100 is 2.66 (which I think makes me about 84% confident that I am a winning player at this level).

WSD 38.58 (28-32 too high a number often represents overly loose play on the big streets)
WSF 32.82 (28-32)
W$SF 47.75 (50-58 Below 50 often indicates that you are seeing too many showdowns)
FRB 35.38 (40-55)
AF flop 2.33
AF turn 2.02
AF river 1.25

I'm calling too many river bets with the 2nd best hand. In a recent hand I had a 1-card flush draw that was checked through on the turn with 4 players. I hit the flush on the river. I think I had the 8. I bet out. I got a caller, and then someone else raised. I figured this is a time I should figure I'm beat and fold, so I folded. The first caller called again and had the 6-high flush. The raiser didn't have a flush. This really pissed me off.

I think emotionally I really hate the idea of folding the best hand worse than anything else. (I'm pretty good with saying "nh" when a donk draws out on me without proper odds and moving on to the next hand.) I understand that in a winning poker strategy, you have to fold the best hand sometimes.

What do you think? How often do winning players fold the best hand, say per hour? (I know a lot of times you don't know.)

Should I post some hands? Should I post all my stats? Thanks.

-Tom

[kerowo]

10k hands isn't very much. Really. I was an absurd 9BB/100 my first 10k hands at .5/1. Post specific hands you have questions about. Nothing we tell you in general is going to make you call with losers less, although stop being so results oriented might come close. Why in the world were you chasing an 8 high one card flush in the first place?

[jively]

[ QUOTE ]
Why in the world were you chasing an 8 high one card flush in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't remember specifically; maybe I had bottom pair and backdoor flush draw on the flop, or maybe it was checked through on the flop before it was checked through on the turn.

-Tom

[CrazyIrishman]

[ QUOTE ]

Other examples of big leaks are folding too often in big pots (a HUGE error that you get to make with rare to occasional frequency), or playing too passively in multiway pots (a substantial error that you get to make frequently).
Ed Miller


[/ QUOTE ]

[jively]

[ QUOTE ]
Other examples of big leaks are folding too often in big pots (a HUGE error that you get to make with rare to occasional frequency), or playing too passively in multiway pots (a substantial error that you get to make frequently).
Ed Miller


[/ QUOTE ]
I do not fold for one bet in large pots; I understand the "I only have to win 8% of the time for this call to be profitable."

I think I am quite aggressive in multi-way pots as well. But maybe that leads to my showing down 2nd-best hands too much. If I have 2nd pair (and maybe a backdoor draw), I like to raise the flop if I am right behind the raiser. It generally makes everyone else fold, and the flop better checks to me on the turn. Would it be standard to put them on top pair? If so, I can take my free card, and fold to their river bet UI... Or, what I usually do is bet the turn, and check behind of the river, to see that they did indeed have top pair. Which is better?

-Tom

[jively]

[ QUOTE ]
If I have 2nd pair (and maybe a backdoor draw), I like to raise the flop if I am right behind the raiser. It generally makes everyone else fold, and the flop better checks to me on the turn. Would it be standard to put them on top pair? If so, I can take my free card, and fold to their river bet UI... Or, what I usually do is bet the turn, and check behind of the river, to see that they did indeed have top pair. Which is better?

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, I made up some hands. These might not be perfect in terms of pot size and odds, but maybe you get my idea. You can add an extra limper in front to make the pot a little bigger if needed.

Let's say MP1 is a typical low-limit player, 35/5/1.2, moderately aggressive, the kind that would bet a flush draw on the flop into a lot of players. Let's say this is 9-handed.

Example 1:

Hero is in MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.
(5 SBs, 5 players)
Flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Versus someone with top pair, I have middle pair (5 outs), backdoor 2nd-nut flush draw (1.5 outs), and a 2-gap backdoor straight draw (0.5 outs).
MP1 bets, Hero raises, 3 folds, MP1 calls.
(4.5 BBs, 2 players)
Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
MP1 checks, Hero ??

So, if I check behind, let's say the river is a blank and MP1 bets. Do I need to fold 2nd pair closing the action on the river getting 5.5 to 1? Or I can bet the turn. What is the chance MP1 will fold a weak Ace? If not, let's say MP1 calls, river is a blank and it's checked through.

Example 2:

Hero is in CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.
(5 SBs, 5 players)
Flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Versus someone with top pair, I have middle pair (5 outs), backdoor nut flush draw (1.5 outs), and a 2-gap backdoor straight draw (0.5 outs).
MP1 bets, Hero raises, 3 folds, MP1 calls.
(4.5 BBs, 2 players)
Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
MP1 checks, Hero ??

Now, in this example it is possible that MP1 bet the flop with a flush draw, or maybe flush draw and bottom pair. I might have the best hand here. How do I play this?

Thanks,

-Tom

[jively]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I made up some hands. [...]
How do I play this?

[/ QUOTE ]
bump - any ideas on these hands I made up?

-Tom

[Pocket3's]

With 5 players seeing a flop with an ace in it your hand is best almost never. I wouldn't raise these flops.

[jively]

[ QUOTE ]
With 5 players seeing a flop with an ace in it your hand is best almost never. I wouldn't raise these flops.

[/ QUOTE ]
So would you call? I was going on the SSHE principle that on the flop, if you are behind a better, you almost always raise or fold. The only call was if you had something like a straight draw where you would only win if you hit it, and not by pairing. (Or if the pot was small.)

I just made up hands for everyone, and with Pokerstove I saw that my equity doesn't go up knocking out the other players. I guess middle pair is drawing just like a straight draw?

-Tom

[sugarshane]

QUOTE:What do you think? How often do winning players fold the best hand, say per hour? (I know a lot of times you don't know.)

I dont think it's something you can really put a # to(I could be wrong).I generally try to look at it as "if I folded then I had a good reason to" not "I folded the best hand". A winning player doesnt fold the best hand, they fold the hand that is least likely to win IMO.

as far as the example you gave.I think you set yourself up for a fold with the 8 high.If you had just check/call the river it would have cost you same amount and you would have been there at showdown.