Was Hachem being unethical?

Ezcheeze · #1 11-23-2005, 02:09 PM

At the final table of Bally's wsop circuit event when there were 10 players left and we were waiting for 1 more to drop to end the day Hachem did something that I disagree with. It isn't against the rules but in my opinion it could be considered unethical by many.

On the last hand of the day with the blinds at 2k-4k with a 500 ante Max Pescatori moves all in in the hijack for 22,500 chips. Joe Hachem is next to act and announces all in. I don't know his exact chip count but I think it was over 150,000. Lee Watkinson is next to act and goes into the tank. He clearly has a good hand and is deciding whether he wants to put the tournament on the line as it will be all in for him. After some time Hachem turns to Watkinson and says "I know what you have."
Watkinson replies "You know what I have? OK tell me what I have."
Hachem says "There are other players behind you I can't say yet but before the cards are turned over I'll tell you what you have."
Watkinson keeps deliberating. Hachem is figiting and to me it was clear he wanted Watkinson not only to fold but was making it clear he had Watkinson beat and that he would be making a mistake to call. After some more time Hachem says to Watkinson "You should have folded a long time ago."

Watkinson folds and Minh Ly moves in his approximately 50k in the small blind immediately. I fold the big blind and the hands are turned up with Pescatori holding A4o, Hachem KK, and Minh Ly JJ. Watkinson claims to have folded QQ and Hachem says something like "Of course I knew you had QQ."

Regardless of whether Watkinson would have called I'm sure he was strongly influenced by Hachem to fold. After the hand Hachem told me he didn't want Watkinson to call. I was shocked and told him he of course wanted watkinson to call. He claims he was worried about going against so many hands and having to dodge alot of cards.

An unfortunate part of the situation is that Minh Ly isn't exaclty a master of the english language and couldn't have understood the full implications of what Hachem was saying. Ly is one of the best players in the world and I'm almost positive he would have folded if he could have completely understood what Hachem was saying.

Clearly Harrah's and the WSOP doesn't think Hachem did anything wrong and no one else seemed to think so either.

As far as I can tell Hachem is a very nice and personable guy and a good NL tournament player. He clearly didn't think he was doing anything wrong or unethical at the time.

What do you guys think?

TheMainEvent · #2 11-23-2005, 02:13 PM

Yes, the old "get your opponents to fold when you're an 4:1 favorite" angle. What a cheater.

Ezcheeze · #3 11-23-2005, 02:19 PM

So it's ok that he told Lee watkinson to fold but not Minh Ly?
By the way, if Watkinson calls Hachem is not a 4 to 1 favorite.

TarHeel100 · #4 11-23-2005, 02:24 PM

There's no rule about who you have to talk to at the poker table and who you don't.

Ezcheeze · #5 11-23-2005, 02:25 PM

I said in my original post that what he did is not against the rules. My question is was it unethical. The way swapping large percentages is unethical.

(Edited to take out an example that acutally is against the rules)

TheMainEvent · #6 11-23-2005, 02:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I said in my original post that what he did is not against the rules. My question is was it unethical. The way swapping large percentages is unethical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say it was unethical if he was saying what he said specifically because Watkinson was his opponent. He may just have not wanted a call, no matter who it was.

NLfool · #7 11-23-2005, 02:48 PM

well you're probably the only person who will probably know. Sometimes it's the tone, the way he stresses certain words etc. No one here was there and it's hard for people to understand exactly what you're getting at. Especially when it's so ambiguous that he somehow doesn't want a call in that spot with KK?

Lloyd · #8 11-23-2005, 03:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I said in my original post that what he did is not against the rules. My question is was it unethical. The way swapping large percentages is unethical.

(Edited to take out an example that acutally is against the rules)

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, it might be against the rules depending upon what rules they are using and how strictly they are interpreting them. But Rule 37 of the TDA states:

[ QUOTE ]
Verbally disclosing the contents of your hand or advising a player how to play a hand may result in a penalty.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly, Hachem did advise another player how to play a hand. But given that there is a TD right there I think he should have stepped in and reminded the players that they cannot disuss their hand or advise others what to do. But it would have to be an outright abuse of the rules for a player to be penalized on a final table of an event like this.

Beavis68 · #9 11-23-2005, 10:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There's no rule about who you have to talk to at the poker table and who you don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a rule about discussing your hand during play. This is pushing it and would have pissed me off. People like Danny N regulary cross the line, but dealers will not enforce it if no one speaks up.

Not only that, but this is collusive since a player is already all in. I would have complained.

Beavis68 · #10 11-23-2005, 10:30 PM

Sorry if this has been covered.

What if you were the guy already all-in, and this jackass was getting people to fold behind, and you were sitting there with AA. He chases people out of the pot when you have a chance to 4x up. This is completely unethical and probably against the rules.