Putting all your chips at risk, how small of an edge?

KKsuited · #1 03-13-2006, 12:48 PM

The original question came from a hand between KK and a top pair (Q) flush draw on the flop. The question became should you fold KK even if you knew the other player was on a pair of Q's and a flush draw.

So how big does your edge need to be to put all your chips at risk? This example was early in the tournament and assume the amount in the pot is not enough to pot commit KK.

I think an argument could be made to fold KK there if you are a good player.

What about this example. First hand of the WSOP ME. You are the defending champ. You are dealt QQ and raise. Internet player with FullContactPoker.com gear on reraises you all-in. While trying to push all his chips in, he exposes AKs.

Do you call off all your chips on a coinflip in that spot?

I'm know I've heard some people (Zeejustin for one) say you should take any edge you can get.

I think you're taking a gamble with much more downside than upside. If you win, you are promised nothing, there's a long way to go. If you lose, you are done.

Any thoughts?

ty2472004 · #2 03-13-2006, 12:56 PM

any edge at all. In fact, early in a tournament I'll even gamble with an ev of zero. On the lines of if you're a good player you can fold; that's [censored]. I feel I have an edge on every field I play in and the reason is I maximize fold equity, play within my bankroll, and I'm willing to take any edge, including slight ones.

uclabruinz · #3 03-13-2006, 01:04 PM

You win 100% of the hands in which you force your opponent(s) to fold. It goes without saying this is the ideal way to accumulate chips throughout a tournament. Moreover, there is nothing wrong with using perceived FE, getting called, and being in a coinflip. But if you try to make a living in tournaments by repeatedly CALLING mortal all-ins because you think you have a slight edge, you won't win many tournaments.

Try to focus on situations where you have two ways to win: by your opponent(s) folding and, if they don't, by winning the showdown. Huge calls should be limited to situations where you have a likely significant edge, IMHO, particularly if combined with good analysis of your own image and a read on your opponent(s).

KKsuited · #4 03-13-2006, 01:20 PM

Looks like we have a couple different view points already.

I understand the importance of getting my chips in first and not calling off your money. I wanted to take that out of the equation. That's why I said "you know" what the other player has.

uclabruinz · #5 03-13-2006, 01:24 PM

Well, I guess if your question is as simple as am I willing to call known coin flips early in tournaments for all my chips, the answer is almost always NO.

ty2472004 · #6 03-13-2006, 01:32 PM

Personally, I think if you don't take coinflips early your throwing away $$$$. The goal of a tournament is to accumulate all the chips and the top three are the only places that really pay. Bruinz i'd be really interested to see your ROI. I'm sure your in the money finishes percentage is pretty high, but I would figure your ROI is less than stellar.

illini43 · #7 03-13-2006, 01:25 PM

This topic has already been discussed. Look in the "anthology thread" at the top of the MTT forum. There are some great posts in that thread. Hope that helps...

KKsuited · #8 03-13-2006, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This topic has already been discussed. Look in the "anthology thread" at the top of the MTT forum. There are some great posts in that thread. Hope that helps...

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I had not read that post. You'd think I had looking at how similar my question was.

Foucault · #9 03-13-2006, 01:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You win 100% of the hands in which you force your opponent(s) to fold. It goes without saying this is the ideal way to accumulate chips throughout a tournament. Moreover, there is nothing wrong with using perceived FE, getting called, and being in a coinflip. But if you try to make a living in tournaments by repeatedly CALLING mortal all-ins because you think you have a slight edge, you won't win many tournaments.

Try to focus on situations where you have two ways to win: by your opponent(s) folding and, if they don't, by winning the showdown. Huge calls should be limited to situations where you have a likely significant edge, IMHO, particularly if combined with good analysis of your own image and a read on your opponent(s).

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying you are looking for spots where you have a small edge when called AND significant fold equity? I think you'll have difficulty finding enough spots like this to win a tournament. You need to use fold equity to compensate in spots where you don't otherwise have an edge. When you already have an edge, you generally should prefer a call.

There's very little difference between calling in a spot where you'll lose 48% of the time and pushing in a spot where your fold equity plus your pot equity against Villain's calling range equals 52% (meaning that you're a dog when called). Both are spots that you should rarely be passing up, and certainly not early in a tournament.

uclabruinz · #10 03-13-2006, 01:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying you are looking for spots where you have a small edge when called AND significant fold equity? I think you'll have difficulty finding enough spots like this to win a tournament. You need to use fold equity to compensate in spots where you don't otherwise have an edge. When you already have an edge, you generally should prefer a call.

There's very little difference between calling in a spot where you'll lose 48% of the time and pushing in a spot where your fold equity plus your pot equity against Villain's calling range equals 52% (meaning that you're a dog when called). Both are spots that you should rarely be passing up, and certainly not early in a tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, your statement that I will have difficulty winning tournaments is wrong. I played at WSOP Rincon a couple weeks ago and final tabled 3 of 6 events entered and chopped one for a second place payout (official results 3rd, 4th, 7th). Not statistically significant, but definitely shows that my style can be successful enough to win tournaments.

As to FE, I am looking for spots where there is significant money in the pot and a bet/raise/push is likely to make the villain fold or, if he calls, I am looking decent against his range. It is why we push with draws post-flop, it is why we sometimes push any two out of the SB, etc. Granted, this is more about middle to late stage play, and my emphasis early on is more about getting donks to pay off my good hands, but then again I am not one who is in a rush to accumulate at the risk of being busted.