KK (6.50)

DetroitHustle · #1 11-03-2007, 03:51 PM

I lose a lot of value by shoving preflop right?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (8 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP2 (t1420)
CO (t2200)
Button (t1965)
SB (t1920)
Hero (t1090)
UTG (t2920)
UTG+1 (t1260)
MP1 (t725)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls t150, 5 folds, SB completes, Hero raises to t500, UTG calls t350, SB folds.

Flop: (t1150) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t590 (All-In), UTG calls t590.

Turn: (t2330) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2330) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2330

mattiesmat · #2 11-03-2007, 03:52 PM

Well it depends on what kind of players are at your table.
To me this looks a lot scarier than a push, but you might get called lighter by loose donks.

ADLinden · #3 11-03-2007, 03:53 PM

just shove preflop, especially after the limper

mattiesmat · #4 11-03-2007, 03:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
just shove preflop, especially after the limper

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?
What if those 2 limpers are donks, who will call a raise, but fold to a push.
I think if that's the case, then raising is fine.
If you think they call a shove, then shove.

DetroitHustle · #5 11-03-2007, 03:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
just shove preflop, especially after the limper

[/ QUOTE ]
Meh 99-QQ i would instashove but utg limper was loose calling station but i feared he would fold to a shove pre.

diditmyway · #6 11-03-2007, 04:03 PM

bet t500 over a limper at 75/150 screams strong hand, I just push pre. if he wanna call another 350 he probably call the rest as well.

mattiesmat · #7 11-03-2007, 04:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
bet t500 over a limper at 75/150 screams strong hand, I just push pre. if he wanna call another 350 he probably call the rest as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this logic, but this is not always the case for not thinking $6.5y donks.

DetroitHustle · #8 11-03-2007, 04:11 PM

I dont think he felt it was strength because he called with 44. Bleh gg me.

sence25 · #9 11-03-2007, 09:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
bet t500 over a limper at 75/150 screams strong hand, I just push pre. if he wanna call another 350 he probably call the rest as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
Literally no one who openlimps at t150 utg would ever get the link between raising-strong, pushing-less strong.
They are like:
1) ZOMG IT'S CHEAP I LIKE MY HAND LETS CALL
2a) ZOMG HE'S ALLIN I CAN'T CALL WITH THAT HAND
2b) ZOMG HE'S ALLIN AND AHEAD ALL THE TIME BUT I STILL LIKE MY HAND AND CALL

To avoid case 2a, we just raise.

Slim Pickens · #10 11-03-2007, 10:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I lose a lot of value by shoving preflop right?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (8 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP2 (t1420)
CO (t2200)
Button (t1965)
SB (t1920)
Hero (t1090)
UTG (t2920)
UTG+1 (t1260)
MP1 (t725)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls t150, 5 folds, SB completes, Hero raises to t500, UTG calls t350, SB folds.

Flop: (t1150) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t590 (All-In), UTG calls t590.

Turn: (t2330) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2330) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2330

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd just like to point out Hero's prize pool equity in the case of shoving preflop and winning the blinds and limp (13.9%) versus doubling through UTG (21.5%) versus busting (0.0%). Rasing instead of pushing has to make it substantially more likely that you get all-in as a huge favorite, which honestly it's not going to do. Sure, 44 might make a crying call on that ragged board with two outs, but a lot of other hands are just getting good implied odds to play. They would probably call a preflop push with A6 anyway, but are able to get away for the last t590 when you have them crushed. 44 might also go away on a lot of flops where they're hopelessly behind, but never when they're ahead.