Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button

jesse8888 · #1 11-01-2007, 12:33 AM

In the hand in question, I actually folded pf. However, let's play this hand assuming I'd made the call.

Hero holds 35o on the button. 3 loose passives limp in and hero limps. SB completes, BB checks, and we're 6 handed to the flop.

46Qr

SB bets out and two players call. The better is straightforward....he likely holds a Q. The loose passives could have a wide range, but likely have some sort of viable draw (one pair, a back door flush with an over....they probably aren't going to show up with 7To at least).

What's hero's action? My initial thought was "Hey, this is a great time for the free card play". Is that what I should be thinking? Or is there more to it? There is no need to knock anyone out; if I hit, I will win, and if I don't, I will not, almost regardless of how many opponents remain.

More to follow after a few responses.

AlienBoy · #2 11-01-2007, 01:39 AM

Folding preflop is correct.

35s would be a call for one bet PF only the button only, with 3 limpers in.

So, we assume that you flopped an OESD on a rainbow board.

Raise for free card play is probably good on this flop, as a rainbow flop. If it's a two flush flop (and not of the suit for your suited 35s) then you have to discount your outs, and a free card play is also giving a free card to anyone chasing a flush.

Also, free card plays are pretty obvious, so if you take a free card on the turn and make it on the river, you are less likely to get paid off.

So free card plays are cheap, but I'm not certain they are max EV.

AB

BryanC · #3 11-01-2007, 02:14 AM

I think theres more value in calling since flop leader is so straight forward he will lead the turn anyway allowing you to raise when you hit and trap all the loose passives in between, your most likely gonna have correct odds to call a big bet on the turn if you miss anyway

So basically I prefer calling because you want the early pos. guy to bet out on turn/river thus allowing you to get more big bets in when you hit

Tugg · #4 11-01-2007, 05:38 AM

I like to raise the flop.You have value now and everyone will call 1 bet back to them.If you just call and you miss the turn you will have to call for odds, but it may end up hu and you might not get anything out of the flop callers.If an A hits and no one holds one your action may dry up completely.I also think that seeing 2 cards for 1 sb has a lot of value.

elindauer · #5 11-02-2007, 07:46 PM

This is reasonable sounding logic, but I don't think it holds up under close scrutiny. The deceptive part is understanding that the extra bets you get when you catch don't quite make up for the extra bets you lose when you (usually) miss.

It's probably not a bad play though... I'd guesstimate that you are betting 1SB at 3.5:1 that you will make your straight on the turn.

-eric

danspartan · #6 11-03-2007, 08:57 AM

The raise also controls the action on the turn. If one of the callers improves to two pair/trips then we could face two cold on turn.
We have equity
The callers generally miss and fold the flop so we get 1.5BB on raising the flop for sure and likely 1BB on the turn (prob on average its even: 1 better and 0.5 callers).
We get control of the action on the turn
Raise

Tugg · #7 11-04-2007, 06:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The raise also controls the action on the turn. If one of the callers improves to two pair/trips then we could face two cold on turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this thinking, if someone had a middle pocket pair and hit their 2 outer or was slow playing a set or improves to 2 pair. They very well may check to you intending to raise,and you can take your free card instead of facing 2 cold.

One Outer · #8 11-01-2007, 06:02 AM

I'm always torn about these spots. On one hand, I see the value of getting the money out of the flop callers while we can. On the other, actually taking the free card on the turn frequently destroys our implied odds. In this situation we would be getting an extra 1.5 SB in the pot on, yes? If we think that we can't do better than that when we get there then the play has value. It's close, but I think in this situation we're usually getting paid more when we get there if we just call.

In my live game I see a lot of situations where there are anwhere from 3-5 flop callers on dry boards like this and all but one or two of them are likely to drop the turn. I think that situation is more conducive to the incredibly overused and abused free card play. I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've used free card this year, if that gives you any idea of what I think of it.

Can someone, I don't know, stove this somehow?

Tugg · #9 11-01-2007, 06:18 AM

I think on this type of board that most of the time the 2 callers will fold on the turn unimproved, if we hit the 7 or 2 they are unlikely to have improved.I think its close though, and if someone threw some math at me or told me they are total callstations I could easily go with the call.

Hamlet · #10 11-01-2007, 11:58 AM

I think a free card play in this situation is fine. I think the 53 straight draw is obscure enough that the Q will pay you off on the river.

I actually like to use the free card play with straight draws when there is a flush draw on board. I bet the river if I make my straight, and bluff the river if the flush comes in. I've stolen a couple decent pots this way.