positional advantage vs. stack leverage.

[DaycareInferno]

this is something i've been thinking about this morning, and i was wondering if any of you guys have any general rules of thumb or ideas on the subject.

lets say i'm in a 6max game, and the guy in front of me is kind of weak post-flop. effective stacks 100bb

hero has 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] otb

mp limps, CO raises to 5, Hero calls, all others fold. 11.5 in the pot.

flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

villain bets 8. he opens with a wide range from the CO, and this flop obviously isn't much help to most of it.

option 1 - fold: we're not going to do this, because the reason we cold-called him preflop is that we think we can push him off hands when he misses, so this would be pointless.

option 2 - call: calling is cheap, and since we are in position, its the most efficient way to gain information. our villain will usually shut down on the turn, and we can steal the pot A-Team style

optioni 3 - raise: if we raise to about 30, villain folds most of his range, beacuse most of it is air. this is more expensive, however it has another advantage. if villain has something like KQ, he is now in much more of a bind than in the previous scenario, where he would just bet again, and we fold. if villain calls, the pot will now become larger than his stack, and he won't be able to get away from his marginal hand. from our point of view, we are risking 30, and we know exactly where we are. from his point of view, he is risking his entire stack, and he's not sure whether or not he is ahead.

i know most people understand stack bind, but it comes up surprisingly little in hh analysis here. i use it a lot more than most do i think. i like it, because it has the added benefit of creating more action in situations where you actually do have a good hand and would prefer to get it in on the flop.

obviously a balanced player should probably use both approaches, at least some of the time. i'm mainly wondering if anyone could share some ideas on what factors should lean a person towards one or the other. for instance, lets say that in the example hand, the board was TT4 instead. should that lean me closer to stack bind or floating compared to the given board?

[SnglMaltScotch]

I often 3-bet pf and c-bet flop if called. As played, I would fold. A K is a large part of his range. Since you don't seem to go that route, floating is bad imo. There are no draws to rep on the turn so what would you be repping. If you want to play non-standard, raise now and bluff. If he has a K you will hear about it. If he doesn't he will fold.

SMS

[DaycareInferno]

[ QUOTE ]
I often 3-bet pf and c-bet flop if called. As played, I would fold. A K is a large part of his range. Since you don't seem to go that route, floating is bad imo. There are no draws to rep on the turn so what would you be repping. If you want to play non-standard, raise now and bluff. If he has a K you will hear about it. If he doesn't he will fold.

SMS

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, i could 3bet preflop, but that's kind of beside the point. the reason that i'm calling pf in the example is because i think that i can steal pots from my opponent postflop a high percentage of the time. with that being my reasoning, it would be dumb to fold on a Khigh rainbow spread to this opponent. AK isn't a big part of his range, because no single hand is a big part of his range. he opens a wide range from the CO, so he could have any broadways, suited aces, suited connectors, whatever.

in the example hand, i'm repping one of 3 things. air, a set, or AK, which i will also sometimes call with preflop versus this type of opponent. i don't want to rep a draw in a stack-bind scenario, because a draw would be behind, and often also be forced to call a shove. that's why screwball straight draws are so much better than flush draws.

[XHitman014]

The villian raised from the CO and c-bet...how does AK make up a large part of his range? His CO range is wide and he's c-betting the entire range on a flop that dry.

[loosbastard]

[ QUOTE ]
The villian raised from the CO and c-bet...how does AK make up a large part of his range? His CO range is wide and he's c-betting the entire range on a flop that dry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously.

But yeah...nice post op. I also think you should post a couple more board textures to generate a little more discussion. Obviously this is a great one to float/makes moves on/etc...but what about something like 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]? Not sure if it's optimal...but I seem to float the one you posted and bluff-raise the second a lot. Although, I'd love to here some better players comment on this.

[DaycareInferno]

yeah, that's kind of what i'm getting at, lb. i'd like to know what factors people think favor one approach over the other.

for example, in the hand that i made up, the K on the board is a really good card in a lot of stack-bind scenarios, because villain can have a lot of different hands that may or may not be ahead, like KQ/KJ/KT/Kxs. i know that i'm behind, and if i had a set, i'd pretty much know that i was ahead. since my risk is 30, and my opponents risk is 85+, he's going to have to be right about whether or not he's ahead a really high percentage of the time. if the board is more drawy, then not only is there a higher chance that he knows or thinks he knows where he stands, but there's also a higher chance that he puts me on a hand that he beats. its no longer a cut and dry scenario where i either have a monster or a turd.

[DaycareInferno]

also on a more drawy board, floating gains a lot of ground in that i can hit imaginary draws on the turn.

[sh58]

firstly you may often want to 3bet here as well

i think it all depends on your image and the board texture, here i think raising is best, because he has to fold unless he has TP+. and then the turn is pretty easy, you should only fire if you think he will fold a king. obviously you can't rep a wide range on this dry board, so you shouldn't always be raising this type of board, only occasionally.

floating is also good on dry flops, cos you can really rep a set well by raising over his turn bet, and taking it away if he checks. this is high risk and expensive though

draw heavier boards are more fun cos you can rep alot of things, but get less respect

i think just mixing it up is best

sorry my post has no direction [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[orange]

day,
as stated, against abc tags who don't really think about ranges at all, raising this flop can be really profitable. (ie. omg, he raised flop, he must have a set!11!). most players we play against will rarely have the amount of history/read to make this read anyhow so yeah, you can profitably raise this flop with alot. but when you go against regs who have alot of history/etc, then you might want to rethink things.

[W3rdy303]

Here is an example I just saw played at 10/20 NL by OtisRush...Well played monster committing the QK on the turn...

Nice insight in this thread, and clearly its been taken to high stakes as well..

MP = OtisRush

Full Tilt Poker, $10/$20 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BB: $2,601
UTG: $1,960
MP: $5,007.50
CO: $3,393
BTN: $1,947
SB: $6,097

Pre-Flop:
<font color="red">UTG raises to $70</font>, MP calls $70, 4 folds

Flop: ($170) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $110</font>, <font color="red">MP raises to $500</font>, UTG calls $390

Turn: ($1,170) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">MP bets $4,437.50 and is All-In</font>, UTG calls $1,390 and is All-In

River: ($3,950) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $3,950 Pot ($3 Rake)
UTG showed Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a pair of Kings) and LOST (-$1,960 NET)
MP showed A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Aces) and WON $3,947 (+$1,987 NET)