200NL HUCASH top pair four straight board against a degenerate bluffer

Vinetou · #1 10-14-2007, 06:07 AM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($2639.30)
Button ($302)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Button raises to $6, Hero raises to $20, Button calls $14.

Flop: ($40) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $28, Button calls $28.

Turn: ($96) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $72, Button calls $72.

River: ($240) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $144, 

Villain is degenerate bluffer. He donked like 1000$ to me by bluffing his whole stack at me a lot of times. He looks for opportunities to make creative bluffs, to try to push of a top pair in a reraised pot and stuff like that. Also, he knows you are trapping, but he will still bluff his whole stack because he can't help himself. However, he changed gears in last 15 minutes a little bit and I even caught him checking down ace high. So he changed gears a little bit, but I don't think that he changed his style too much.

I should explain my flop and turn play first. I made a c bet on the flop, pretty normally. If villain had a 5, I am 90% sure he would raise me on the flop, so I figured 6 was a scare card for him and I decided to fire second barrell to try to push him off something weaker. He made a bet on the river, which confuses me. Even though he might be bluffing, I don't know what I can beat. He is capable of turning one pair into a bluff, but I am more afraid of a two pair value betting here. I just don't know what hands would he call me down twice which I beat. And he is capable of calling you down twice light, just too see if you check river so that he can bet (but he changed gears, so he probably wouldn't do that here, or maybe, I don't know).

If I didn't catch the ace, I would actually fire a third barrell here, because he is not slowplaying.

So do you call here?

KakiTee · #2 10-14-2007, 06:21 AM

does he fold to a push?

- anyway you should bet call the river if he never has a 5 with that line, because he probably isn't spastic enough to make a thin value shove over your 3rd barrel with 2pr (since you are probably paying off his 2pr etc.. anyway with a c/c)

- A7 is in his range though, and given your comments it seems like a call, but i think bet/calling is better.

Vinetou · #3 10-14-2007, 06:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
does he fold to a push?

- anyway you should bet call the river if he never has a 5 with that line, because he probably isn't spastic enough to make a thin value shove over your 3rd barrel with 2pr (since you are probably paying off his 2pr etc.. anyway with a c/c)

- A7 is in his range though, and given your comments it seems like a call, but i think bet/calling is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet calling seems like the worst possible line. I don't give him a chance to bluff, he plays perfectly against me that way. Given his aggressive image, I think he would bet two pair here. He knows that he bluffed a lot into me and is steaming. He is an idiot, but he would probably figure the way to value bet two pair here.

KakiTee · #4 10-14-2007, 07:14 AM

yeah but since you think he cannot have a 5 here, and its unlikely he turns 2pr into a bluff you may as well lead to get value from like 3rd pair etc.. since that will block raises from 2pr (unless you think he'll turn 2pr into some stupid thin value bluff), and call a raise since he may be floating to make a play.

- call as played though obv

Vinetou · #5 10-14-2007, 08:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
yeah but since you think he cannot have a 5 here, and its unlikely he turns 2pr into a bluff you may as well lead to get value from like 3rd pair etc.. since that will block raises from 2pr (unless you think he'll turn 2pr into some stupid thin value bluff), and call a raise since he may be floating to make a play.

- call as played though obv

[/ QUOTE ]

Given his image, he would be value betting two pair, he knows that. He is not that dumb. He is dumb only in that direction that he knows you are trapping, but he can't help himself not to bluff. Plus, as I said, he might call me down light two times, just to see if I will check river so that he could steal the pot. He is not calling me with a pair here, however. He is a bluffing station, not a calling station. He doesn't expect me to bluff because so far I didn't do that, I was only trapping him.

KakiTee · #6 10-14-2007, 08:46 AM

that's why i suggested betting the river because you rate to stack him. c/c is fine is spose, but if i were that confident in my read i'd rather try to capitalize fully in this spot.

xSCWx · #7 10-14-2007, 06:32 AM

I wouldn't bet this turn against the described villain. As played I'd call river.

BarryLyndon · #8 10-16-2007, 10:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($2639.30)
Button ($302)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Button raises to $6, Hero raises to $20, Button calls $14.

Flop: ($40) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $28, Button calls $28.

Turn: ($96) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $72, Button calls $72.

River: ($240) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $144, 

Villain is degenerate bluffer. He donked like 1000$ to me by bluffing his whole stack at me a lot of times. He looks for opportunities to make creative bluffs, to try to push of a top pair in a reraised pot and stuff like that. Also, he knows you are trapping, but he will still bluff his whole stack because he can't help himself. However, he changed gears in last 15 minutes a little bit and I even caught him checking down ace high. So he changed gears a little bit, but I don't think that he changed his style too much.

I should explain my flop and turn play first. I made a c bet on the flop, pretty normally. If villain had a 5, I am 90% sure he would raise me on the flop, so I figured 6 was a scare card for him and I decided to fire second barrell to try to push him off something weaker. He made a bet on the river, which confuses me. Even though he might be bluffing, I don't know what I can beat. He is capable of turning one pair into a bluff, but I am more afraid of a two pair value betting here. I just don't know what hands would he call me down twice which I beat. And he is capable of calling you down twice light, just too see if you check river so that he can bet (but he changed gears, so he probably wouldn't do that here, or maybe, I don't know).

If I didn't catch the ace, I would actually fire a third barrell here, because he is not slowplaying.

So do you call here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that you may have started playing his game here instead of adjusting to his game, given the board texture by the turn, your hand, and the potential problems ahead if an A hits.

I realize that in playing habitual bluffers, you need to build big pots and pick them off on later streets. But that's mostly when you have the goods / or think you ahead wiith A high. Did you think you were ahead with A high here? Also, you are OOP on a low board that could very well have hit him in some way.

I just think that it's really hard to do so in this spot. I would have checked the turn. I call on the river given your reads, but it's not a pleasant spot to be in.

Barry

Vinetou · #9 10-16-2007, 12:15 PM

Barry, once again, he's not a calling station, and has no reason to think I am bluffing, he is a bluffing station. If I don't give him a chance to bluff, he has to fold. I am pretty confident I made the right play by betting flop and turn here. Checking turn and finding a better spot is also fine. I guess it is neutral EV.

BarryLyndon · #10 10-16-2007, 02:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Barry, once again, he's not a calling station, and has no reason to think I am bluffing, he is a bluffing station. If I don't give him a chance to bluff, he has to fold. I am pretty confident I made the right play by betting flop and turn here. Checking turn and finding a better spot is also fine. I guess it is neutral EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your flop bet is fine.

It seems like you have a lot of Meta against this opponent, but:

1. If he RRs the turn, are you prepared to fold?
2. If he calls the turn, with what?
3. Does he EVER call with a worse hand here given your read on the flop that he doesn't have a 5? (A7, fine, anything else)?
4. Does he ever fold a better hand here (AJ, AQ, AK, mid pairs). Keep in mind that, even though he did show AQ here, AQ/AK probably RRs you PF. Definitely AK. So, better hands you have FE against, IMO - AJ and AQ. Maybe. And you already have an A.
5. Are your implied odds available if an A/10 hits against a midpair?
6. If you check and he bets when a 10 hits, do you call? Implied odds?
7. If you check the turn, what do you think he does on the river?

Just some questions, that's all. I don't mean to imply he's a calling station and it seems like you have some "feel" against this guy.

Barry
PS: What is a "bluffing station?" Is it someone who you can goad into bluffing by making plays, or someone who calls/bluffs on later streets? Or just a bluffy guy?