How do YOU respond to active 3-bettors?

Acevader · #1 10-11-2007, 07:02 PM

I wasn't sure if 'Theory' was the best place for this or elsewhere. I decided to go with this part of the forum since it reflects the levels I play at.

A part of my game that I'm struggling with at the moment is responding to players that 3-bet often. I generally 4-table NL$100 or NL$200 and my key stats are:

20% VI$IP
16% PFR
3.4 Post-flop Aggro
35% Attempt to Steal.

I'm quite a positional player and at a 6-handed table my VP$IP will be about 12% UTG and about 25% by the button. For this reason I do find I get 3-bet quite often when I open first in from the CO/BTN. Everyone is entitled to a little 3-betting and I don't let it bother me but there are players that start to really 3-bet the hell out me and I just don't know how to respond. It seems every time I take a stand they turn up with the goods and I get badly burned.

You should know that I don't call 3-bets (assuming 100bb effective). I'll 4-bet or fold nearly every time with the only hands I'll call with being JJ-AA but that's also rare. I'll usually 4-bet QQ+. Sometimes I call with JJ/QQ to avoid an A/K flop and sometimes I'll call with AA/KK to trap - I never call with 1010 or lower or SC's or AK or AQ with 100bb effective stacks.

My response has been to start to increase my 4-bet range and I have, after reading a thread on here about it, started to 4-bet less than a PSB. I do that with hands like AA-KK for value but also occasionally with SC's and weak hands as a bluff. The lighter 4-bet means if pushed I'm not actually committed to calling with my bluff hand where if I'd 4-bet pot I can commit myself easily. I don't believe this has been very successful.

My other tactic is to 3-bet light myself. For every 3.5-4bb raise they take from me uncontested I seek to do the same. Obviously I don't do this on a tit-for-tat basis but rather look to try and run as fierce a 3-betting game as the next guy.

This however, also has problems and that is that I'm called alarmingly often. The other day for example with 100bb effective stacks I 3-bet a button raise from the SB with AKs and was called by Fidodell a 19/16 NL$100 regular who seems solid. The flop was 10-high and I bet $20 at $25. He called and we checked down for him to turn over J10o and win. This is what has me confused; this guy is seemingly solid yet he's calling a 3-bet with a hand I'd NEVER call a 3-bet with.

Next we have the pairs and floaters: Normally if I 3-bet pre I'll pump a $3.5 PSR to $13.5. This leaves me about $90 back and it's $10 for villain to call. I've already explained my 3-bet range is lighter than AA-QQ and yet so often I'm called here by low-mid PP's and so often they call a continuation bet on any board lower than Q-high (or they hit a set). I've also seen people call my 3-bets with AJ/KJ/A10/56, etc, etc and then float basically any flop. This seems to work well for them since in combination terms I'm more likely to have a non-paired hand than a paired big-pair and when my c-bet is called I feel I have to give up.

For example, I 3-bet a CO raise with AsKd to $13 and the flop comes Qd,9h,7c. I bet out $22, villain calls and the turn is a 2h. What can I do? He could have KQ/AQ/JJ/1010/AK or, as I've often seen, even wider ranges. I've invested $35 of my $100 stack and any meaningful bet commits me to the pot. All to often I check, they bet and I fold? I just seem to get 3-bet pot after 3-bet pot taken away from me in this manner and whilst I don't want to sound like a bad-beat merchant very often if the flop comes A,4,7 I get shown 44 or 77 for a set and get stacked every single time (it's so hard to avoid in 3-bet pot).

Basically I seem to get the worst of it in every way. Players 3-bet the hell out of me knowing that I'll either 4-bet or fold and its usually the later by a margin. However, when I 3-bet liberally I'm called and have my flop bet raised or floated (for turn weakness) quite often.

The net result is that I'd say that 3-bet pots are costing me a fortune (is there anyway to get PT or PokerEV to ONLY show pots you entered where there was a re-raise preflop??). How do I adapt? How do I ensure that these players don't run over me by stealing a lot of my pre-flop raises or calling my 3-bets then stealing those pots?

Jamougha · #2 10-11-2007, 07:08 PM

4-bet to 30BB with junk or call and bluff the flop.

Acevader · #3 10-11-2007, 07:12 PM

Can you give examples of when you might use one technique or the other? What flops textures do you intend to bluff and do you bluff by raising the flop or calling and looking for a hint of weakness? What factors influence your decisions here? Today for example I was getting 3-bet to bits by this one guy so I called with 10s8s and intended to bluff nearly every flop. I c/r AI on a paired 9-high flop with two spades and didn't improve against JJ. Then there is the 30bb light raise with junk - a worrying number of Full Tilt players just call those raises so what do you do when you don't connect?

Claunchy · #4 10-11-2007, 07:27 PM

OOP I'm more likely to 4-bet/fold with crap.

In position, I'm more likely to call and take a flop. Bluffing sometimes, getting really thin value others (obv just folding sometimes too).

Acevader · #5 10-11-2007, 07:29 PM

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I'm more likely to call and take a flop. Bluffing sometimes, getting really thin value others (obv just folding sometimes too)

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you also please give an example or two of hand(s), flops, situations where you might bluff/give up/get thin value, etc?

Acevader · #6 10-11-2007, 08:17 PM

Is there anyway we can use game theory to set up a virtually or totally unexploitable 4-bet push strategy? If so, how?

galmost · #7 10-12-2007, 04:50 AM

If someone is constantly 3-betting me in position, I'll just find another table. Sometimes I'll play back at them, but getting 3-bet when I'm out of position sucks and it increases my variance.

Acevader · #8 10-12-2007, 07:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If someone is constantly 3-betting me in position, I'll just find another table. Sometimes I'll play back at them, but getting 3-bet when I'm out of position sucks and it increases my variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've often done this but these days it just seems like full-tilt if full of 3-bet machines and since they usually play a minimum of 4 tables there is nearly always someone that is 3-bet happy at the majority of tables. Also, since these players usually know what they are doing they tend to look for the same tables that I do - ones with fish.

Hamburglar · #9 10-12-2007, 07:48 AM

your table selection stinks, i played fulltilt $100nl for months w/ your stats (postflop more aggro than you) and i rarely get this problem.

Acevader · #10 10-12-2007, 08:06 AM

What time of day though Hamburglar? For example, I'll start playing in about 1 hours time as its 1300 in the afternoon in the UK. However, its US day-time so most of the fishes are at work. I have been getting up at UK 630 to play for a while and its definitely better then as I'm playing people that are up late in the US. It's not really practical for me to work my hours to take in the US 1900-midnight shift.