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#2
10-10-2007, 11:03 AM
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Re: What Do You Do Different In Tourney & Cash Games?
In tournaments, you gain equity by other people busting - in cash games, you don't (directly--if a good player busts to a bad player, the fact that the bad player has more chips to lose increases your equity). This means that it is generally correct to play tight during the early rounds while the donks bust each other out - IF you are the best or one of the best players in the tournament.
Also, a difference between the two is that once you go bust in a tournament, you're out (unless it's during the rebuy period of a rebuy tournament). This means that, if you are one of the better players, you have to give up situations which are +cEV (chip expected value), since they are not necessarily +$EV. Basically, going bust takes away your ability to make even higher +cEV decisions later. If you have pocket queens and someone pushes all-in with AKo, and you know they have AKo, it's generally correct to fold during the early stages of the tournament (again, if you're better than the competition), even though you have more than half the equity. This is because if you go bust here, you lose the chance to get it all in with AA v. AQ, QQ v. TT, etc. later. 
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#3
10-10-2007, 12:00 PM
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Re: What Do You Do Different In Tourney & Cash Games?
In the early stages of tourneys, you don't gain equity by other people busting.
You should not play tight & let the donks bust each other out, you should try to get their chips before other people do. Very very rarely should you pass up +cEV situations, if you're one of the better players. If you have QQ & someone pushes with AKo early in a tourney, you should call.
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#4
10-10-2007, 12:10 PM
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Re: What Do You Do Different In Tourney & Cash Games?
[ QUOTE ]
In the early stages of tourneys, you don't gain equity by other people busting. You should not play tight & let the donks bust each other out, you should try to get their chips before other people do. Very very rarely should you pass up +cEV situations, if you're one of the better players. If you have QQ & someone pushes with AKo early in a tourney, you should call. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, you do gain equity by other people busting. Let me prove it. You are in a 10 man SnG for $10+1 that pays 3 places 50/30/20 (standard). At the start of the tourney, everybody has 1000 chips and $10 equity (assuming equal skill). Say that one maniac goes on a tear and eliminates 8 players leaving you heads up. He has 9000 chips and since you folded every hand you still have 1000 chips. What is your equity now? It can't be $10 because you are guaranteed second place which pays $30.
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#5
10-10-2007, 12:59 PM
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Re: What Do You Do Different In Tourney & Cash Games?
[ QUOTE ]
This means that it is generally correct to play tight during the early rounds while the donks bust each other out - IF you are the best or one of the best players in the tournament. [/ QUOTE ] The best players in a tournament won't be playing super tight during the early rounds, they will be stealing pots from weak-tight nits by aggressively playing speculative hands in position, and then busting the loose-passive donks when they hit a big hand. [ QUOTE ] If you have pocket queens and someone pushes all-in with AKo, and you know they have AKo, it's generally correct to fold during the early stages of the tournament (again, if you're better than the competition), even though you have more than half the equity. [/ QUOTE ] Anyone who folds QQ preflop to a suspected AK all-in is a losing player, much less one of the best in a tournament.
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#6
10-10-2007, 01:10 PM
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Re: What Do You Do Different In Tourney & Cash Games?
Was assuming MTTs from "Tourney". Yeah big difference between Cash & STTs. But other than adapting to opponents playing differently, there shouldn't be a big difference between MTTs & Cash.
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#7
10-10-2007, 01:36 PM
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Re: What Do You Do Different In Tourney & Cash Games?
[ QUOTE ]
But other than adapting to opponents playing differently, there shouldn't be a big difference between MTTs & Cash. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
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#8
10-10-2007, 01:12 PM
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Re: What Do You Do Different In Tourney & Cash Games?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] This means that it is generally correct to play tight during the early rounds while the donks bust each other out - IF you are the best or one of the best players in the tournament. [/ QUOTE ] The best players in a tournament won't be playing super tight during the early rounds, they will be stealing pots from weak-tight nits by aggressively playing speculative hands in position, and then busting the loose-passive donks when they hit a big hand. [ QUOTE ] If you have pocket queens and someone pushes all-in with AKo, and you know they have AKo, it's generally correct to fold during the early stages of the tournament (again, if you're better than the competition), even though you have more than half the equity. [/ QUOTE ] Anyone who folds QQ preflop to a suspected AK all-in is a losing player, much less one of the best in a tournament. [/ QUOTE ] Do you understand the difference between $eV and cEV? I'm not advocating folding QQ regularly in tournaments, but that's because the range of hands people will push with is much wider than QQ+, AK. You are only a 54% favorite with QQ against AK. If AK open-pushes in a tournament, and you're getting very close to 1:1, folding is unquestionably the correct move. It can even be correct if you're getting relatively better odds than those. I suggest reading Sklansky's book on tournament poker, where, I believe, he recommends this exact thing. Let me put it this way: Do you agree that there are circumstances where you can have positive chip expectation, but not positive money expectation? That is, where you avoid marginally +cEV situations (such as races)? If you do, and exclude QQ v AK, how narrow does the margin need to be?
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#9
10-10-2007, 02:03 PM
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Re: What Do You Do Different In Tourney & Cash Games?
[ QUOTE ]
Do you understand the difference between $eV and cEV? [/ QUOTE ] Yes, of course. That's why ICM exists. I assumed in my response we were talking about the early rounds of a deep-stacked MTT, rather than an SnG. Your advice is more applicable to the latter. [ QUOTE ] You are only a 54% favorite with QQ against AK. If AK open-pushes in a tournament, and you're getting very close to 1:1, folding is unquestionably the correct move. It can even be correct if you're getting relatively better odds than those. I suggest reading Sklansky's book on tournament poker, where, I believe, he recommends this exact thing. [/ QUOTE ] I'd like to verify this. I'd be surprised to find out he recommends folding QQ vs AK all-in preflop, except for (maybe) the very best players in the field. [ QUOTE ] Let me put it this way: Do you agree that there are circumstances where you can have positive chip expectation, but not positive money expectation? That is, where you avoid marginally +cEV situations (such as races)? If you do, and exclude QQ v AK, how narrow does the margin need to be? [/ QUOTE ] Again, I understand the difference between cEV and $EV in a tournament. Nevertheless, I claim that even small edges should be pushed in the early rounds of a deep stacked MTT (in other words, I claim that such play is in fact +$EV). However, that is still "tight" preflop compared to cash game play. Surviving to the bubble is important in STTs.
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#10
10-10-2007, 02:44 PM
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Re: What Do You Do Different In Tourney & Cash Games?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The best players in a tournament won't be playing super tight during the early rounds, they will be stealing pots from weak-tight nits by aggressively playing speculative hands in position, and then busting the loose-passive donks when they hit a big hand. [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] I agree. This is a good description of some of the strategies used by top players. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If you have pocket queens and someone pushes all-in with AKo, and you know they have AKo, it's generally correct to fold during the early stages of the tournament (again, if you're better than the competition), even though you have more than half the equity. [/ QUOTE ] Anyone who folds QQ preflop to a suspected AK all-in is a losing player, much less one of the best in a tournament. [/ QUOTE ] Do you understand the difference between $eV and cEV? [/ QUOTE ] I do. That doesn't appear to be the source of disagreement. There are two main arguments for rational risk aversion in this context. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Prize structure: Any prize for second place rewards survival to some extent, making the value of chips sublinear. However, this is greatest for SNGs, where it changes the calling threshold by several percent, and has a minimal effect in early stages of MTTs which pay about 10% of the field, where it might change the threshold by less than 1%. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Skill advantage: The average player roughly doubles up half of the time. A skilled player doubles up more than half of the time, which means the value of chips is sublinear even if the winner takes all. This should be the dominant factor in MTT discussions. I don't think people have made a case using bankroll management, and I doubt it would be very strong, so I'll ignore that. Despite these, the contention is that QQ vs. AK is too good to give up. [ QUOTE ] You are only a 54% favorite with QQ against AK. [/ QUOTE ] Actually, QQ is a 56-44 favorite over {AKo,AKs}. It's 54-46 over AKs, and 57-43 over AKo. See http://www.pokerstove.com . [ QUOTE ] If AK open-pushes in a tournament, and you're getting very close to 1:1 [/ QUOTE ] It's not close enough to ignore the dead money. Have you done the math? I've posted this calculation a few times, e.g., for SNGs. Even in the first level, the dead money usually lowers the calling threshold by more than a percent. The dead money often changes the calling threshold by 3% or more even in early levels. In fact, this is a larger effect than if the big blind is yet to act and might wake up with KK or AA about 0.5% of the time, which only costs you about half of your stack on average when it happens. [ QUOTE ] folding is unquestionably the correct move. [/ QUOTE ] That's the opposite of the conclusion of this Matt Matros article in CardPlayer, which concluded it was not only right to call with QQ against AKs, but that it was not a close decision. While I think that article was flawed, as I pointed out in a discussion of a similar article in the 2+2 Internet Magazine, many other studies have also concluded that it is right to call with QQ. Your assertion of the opposite is far from unquestionable. [ QUOTE ] It can even be correct if you're getting relatively better odds than those. I suggest reading Sklansky's book on tournament poker, where, I believe, he recommends this exact thing. [/ QUOTE ] I have read it, and I suggest that you recall the context. The very best players might fold with a small advantage that comes with a high chance of busting out. The vast majority of players, even winning players, should not fold such an advantage. For some reason, people misunderstand this as saying that in order to become a great player, you need to fold with a large advantage that comes with a chance to be eliminated. That's not what you are saying here, but you are applying the advice for the best players out of context, to advantages that are too large and for players who are merely winning players. [ QUOTE ] Let me put it this way: Do you agree that there are circumstances where you can have positive chip expectation, but not positive money expectation? That is, where you avoid marginally +cEV situations (such as races)? If you do, and exclude QQ v AK, how narrow does the margin need to be? [/ QUOTE ] An 8% pad (which represents about a 16% overlay, adding about a sixth to your stack on average) is huge. There are many other times when you can estimate your edge to be smaller than that. They happen frequently postflop, e.g., you might be getting slightly better than 3:2 on a call, and you might be confident that you are very close to 3:2 against your opponent's range due to past studies of the situation. Or, you might push when you need to be called less than 60% of the time for it to be profitable, and you might estimate that your chance to be called is 55%. Please don't assume that those who are arguing against you are overlooking simple factors. That's not the only way to disagree.
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