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#1
10-03-2007, 08:40 AM
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FLO8 - Fluctations or Mistakes?
This kind of thing has happened very frequently, with less vulnerable hands than a flopped str8 eg) nut full houses. Whilst I've experienced the variance of FLHE, and bad runs. Having put a lot of work in on FLO8 to improve my game, I'm getting very little out, and it's getting dispiriting. If a hand stands up, it's generally a smaller pot due to lack of aggressive players to help me push pot equity advantages.
Have other winning players, gone through poor runs? FLO8 seems to me to be a real grind, just eeking out small edges, with very poor players able to play loose-passive with their stacks going off in rake, rather than over to my stack. In FLHE I tend to have more chance to protect vulnerable marginal hands eg) top pair on flop by check/raise. With the FLO8 1-1-2-2 betting structure, caller collusion is making the most horrible flop calls seem like a small price for the next card. Pre-flop: I raise with A289 precisely to buy outs for middle str8s Flop: Nut Str8 + nut Lo draw, bet I think if Fish1 wants to go for a str8, with an 5A Lo draw, putting me on Nut Lo he ought to be raising, and hope my Lo draw gets busted, possibly gaining free card on turn. MP2 seems to have got rewarded for very bad play. Turn: Nuts + nut Lo draw, bet River: Non nut str8 no Lo As is I realised the river card was bad, but I value bet because the pot was big, noone would put me on the 98 str8 so I'd get called by weaker hands (even pairs), and the loose players behind had 'random' hands, rather than high liklihood of nut str8. I couldn't construct a good reason for most KJ/J8 hands to be in the pot. MP2 is quite poor enough to call a raise with medium running cards, and draw on a gutshot to a split pot, ie. T-hi str8, not just drawing to a better nut str8, hence my call of river raise. Furthermore if I showed weakness, MP1 bets then I end up calling MP2's raise anyway. What happens is I miss bets, when my hand has stood up, and pay off the same when it hasn't. So is my thinking and way I played this sensible? Do I keep plugging away, perhaps exercising a little more caution regarding the nuts on the river. Perhaps switching over to PLO would make more sense? FTR Hand History Converter Output (intended for copying and pasting into poker forums!): -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Omaha/8 (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards) Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with  ,  ,  ,  . [color=#666666]2 folds</font>, [color=#CC3333]Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, [color=#666666]2 folds</font>, Button calls, [color=#666666]1 fold</font>, BB calls. Flop: (10.50 SB)  ,  ,  [color=#0000FF](5 players)</font>BB checks, [color=#CC3333]Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls, BB folds. Turn: (7.25 BB)  [color=#0000FF](4 players)</font>[color=#CC3333]Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls. River: (11.25 BB)  [color=#0000FF](4 players)</font>[color=#CC3333]Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, [color=#CC3333]MP2 raises</font>, Button folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls. Final Pot: 17.25 BB Results in white below: [color=#FFFFFF] Hero has 8c 9h 2d Ah (High: straight, ten high). MP1 has 6c 8d Ad 5c (High: straight, ten high). MP2 has Jd Qs Ks 3d (High: straight, king high). Outcome: MP2 wins 17.25 BB. </font> 
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#4
10-03-2007, 02:20 PM
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Re: FLO8 - Fluctations or Mistakes?
River play is sad. You have to c/f or c/c here. You missed your nut low draw, and your straight is highly susceptible.. which is EXACTLY what happens when you're depending on 98 in this game. In a sense you were forced into it with the A2.. not faulting you for playing it. But no way am I raising it PF, b/c you're really only playing for half the pot from the get-go. Just take it easy until the lo hits, and then get frisky. (Of course I have no idea what the board is for this hand, so this is based only on the results you've posted.)
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#5
10-03-2007, 03:33 PM
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Re: FLO8 - Fluctations or Mistakes?
Betting the river OOP is sketchy here. I know that you WANT to believe that you're still good, but there are simply too many ways in which you are not. Whether you c/f or c/c is player-dependent but leans toward c/f.
As I'm sure you know, limit poker is a game of winning and/or saving one bet here and one bet there. A bet saved is a bet won. If you're bleeding in the way shown in this hand with any amount of regularity, it would account for your "variance." If you find yourself at tables full of tight-weakies, consider being that aggressor -- build your own pots. It isn't likely that you're going to get the help on that level. (It's fun too.) Also, in today's online poker world, at least from the US perspective, it's really hard to make any $ online at the lower limits. There are too many competent hobbyists and not enough fish. It's going to be really hard to meaningfully beat the rake at 50 cent FLO8. (Could you tell me how the play is from the UK on the other sites that have barred US players? If it's softer, consider playing there.)
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#6
10-04-2007, 09:12 AM
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Re: FLO8 - Fluctations or Mistakes?
[ QUOTE ]
Betting the river OOP is sketchy here. [/ QUOTE ] Yep, it's marginal. [ QUOTE ] I know that you WANT to believe that you're still good, but there are simply too many ways in which you are not. [/ QUOTE ] No, my decision is not whether my hand is good, (I thought it was likely 2nd best in fact) but whether a bet or check/call, or check/fold has the most +ve EV. In ToP on River play, it explains it. But as I expect 3 callers (yes 3) when my hand is good, when I bet I do not need to win even 50% of time! Say 4 ppl call, and 1 splits with me, then I earn a bet. I don't feel J8 str8 will raise, and I'll only have to call MP2 because he's the only player who'd may be raise here with a worse hand. So due to MP2 calling range, and higher liklihood of his holding a low raggy hand, or a pocket pair, I felt I'd rarely be calling his 2 bet raise, and sometimes when I do, I'll catch a bluff. Think ToP explains multi-way river decisions, after the "Heads Up on the River" section, it's poorly understood, but beginner's often play better here in reality than the battle scared. The hard thing multi-way is the exponential increase in quality of best hand, you do need a near nut hand most often in PLO8, but actually it's a subtle mistake to just be a nuts bettor. [ QUOTE ] Whether you c/f or c/c is player-dependent but leans toward c/f. As I'm sure you know, limit poker is a game of winning and/or saving one bet here and one bet there. A bet saved is a bet won. If you're bleeding in the way shown in this hand with any amount of regularity, it would account for your "variance." [/ QUOTE ] The games are very easy to beat, when they're good. The tough thing is to find good games at my usual playing time. Looser or tighter, is fine. The mid-zone of caller collusion is the problem. [ QUOTE ] If you find yourself at tables full of tight-weakies, consider being that aggressor -- build your own pots. It isn't likely that you're going to get the help on that level. (It's fun too.) [/ QUOTE ] They'll happily take free cards in PLO8. In Hold'em there's far more players who assist in building pots and trapping Fish for multiple bets. [ QUOTE ] Also, in today's online poker world, at least from the US perspective, it's really hard to make any $ online at the lower limits. There are too many competent hobbyists and not enough fish. It's going to be really hard to meaningfully beat the rake at 50 cent FLO8. (Could you tell me how the play is from the UK on the other sites that have barred US players? If it's softer, consider playing there.) [/ QUOTE ] Well the only place I can find a game or two is Poker Stars now. When I can play at 3pm ET especially Fridays, it seems the games are much softer. Or if I can play around 2am-3am ET, the games are often good with tilty US players. European players tend to play PLO or PLO8 not FLO8. That's another reason to consider PLO8, simply higher game availability, as well as not requiring other 'Action' players to build pots.
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#7
10-04-2007, 12:47 AM
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Re: FLO8 - Fluctations or Mistakes?
Hi Rob – I can see why you would feel disheartened. That hand has so much promise after the flop – and then fizzle, poof - nothing. Much as I know that is going to happen sometimes, it’s still disappointing to me when it does.
The turn is a terrible card for you, a fizzle. At least it does not make someone a flush draw, but it gives you nothing and opens the way for many losing cards on the river. After this turn, you really like 12 cards (threes, fours, and fives). And at least you’re guaranteed some part of the pot with aces, eights, and deuces, another 9 cards. But then, poof, the river is one of the cards that does not enable low and makes a higher straight possible (and also makes a whole bunch of ties possible). And as often happens, an opponent has just the right two-card combination to profit from the river at your expense. You just didn’t have any luck here. [ QUOTE ] If a hand stands up, it's generally a smaller pot due to lack of aggressive players to help me push pot equity advantages. [/ QUOTE ]That could be because you always have a good starting hand and then you always have a flop fit when you stay in the hand. While that’s a good way to play, if your opponents start thinking of you as a rock, you’ll have trouble getting action when you’re in a hand. I’m guessing you’re a solid player who pushes your edges. And your opponents will notice that after a while, see you as a rock, and tighten up against you. I think it’s a good idea to start out playing like a rock and to know how to play like a rock. But then as you learn the game, I think you can loosen up a bit when the game is loose, and you also can play more marginal flop fits. And you can start punishing opponents who play like rocks by not giving them action. And I think at some point you have to make that adjustment. And the period during which you’re making that adjustment can be brutal, with some zigging when you should be zagging and vice versa. [ QUOTE ] Have other winning players, gone through poor runs? [/ QUOTE ]I have. I back off and take some time to re-evaluate my game when it happens. [ QUOTE ] FLO8 seems to me to be a real grind, just eeking out small edges, with very poor players able to play loose-passive with their stacks going off in rake, rather than over to my stack. [/ QUOTE ]I don’t think that way. I’m always interested in trying to put my opponents on cards and then play accordingly. And it's simply fun for me to do that - to try to figure out what my opponents are thinking and what cards they hold. [ QUOTE ] In FLHE I tend to have more chance to protect vulnerable marginal hands eg) top pair on flop by check/raise. [/ QUOTE ]I don’t exactly think that way. I do try to protect hands that need protection. However, it seems generally a mistake to me to hope for a check raise to do that (but not if you’re in first position and feel certain everyone will check to the player in last position, who will then bet anything). [ QUOTE ] With the FLO8 1-1-2-2 betting structure, caller collusion is making the most horrible flop calls seem like a small price for the next card. [/ QUOTE ]Interesting. I’ll have to think about that. [ QUOTE ] Pre-flop: I raise with A289 precisely to buy outs for middle str8s [/ QUOTE ]Interesting. I’ll have to think about that too. [ QUOTE ] Flop: Nut Str8 + nut Lo draw, bet [/ QUOTE ] Yes! What a great flop!! [ QUOTE ] I think if Fish1 wants to go for a str8, with an 5A Lo draw, putting me on Nut Lo he ought to be raising, and hope my Lo draw gets busted, possibly gaining free card on turn. [/ QUOTE ]Hmm. Why would he do that? [ QUOTE ] MP2 seems to have got rewarded for very bad play. [/ QUOTE ]That happens a lot. But that’s good for you! If your opponents never got rewarded for bad play, they’d be less likely to play badly against you. Sometimes it’s a mystery to me what my opponents are thinking, but they’re thinking something! They’re trying to beat me and trying to think of ways to do that. And the nature of the game is they have to win sometimes to keep coming back. [ QUOTE ] Turn: Nuts + nut Lo draw, bet [/ QUOTE ]Instead of thinking that way, consider thinking in terms of how many river cards are good for you and how many are bad. You might end up playing the same way, but I believe it’s a slightly better way to think. [ QUOTE ] As is I realised the river card was bad, but I value bet because the pot was big, noone would put me on the 98 str8 so I'd get called by weaker hands (even pairs), and the loose players behind had 'random' hands, rather than high liklihood of nut str8. [/ QUOTE ] No hand is an island. By occasionally making a bet like this, you’ll tend to get more action the next time you bet the nuts on the river. But, yes, if you make bad bets too often on the river, you’re throwing away more money for “advertising” than you need to expend. And by boldly betting here, if you do have a solid reputaion, you might knock out one of the multitude of hands that tie you here. (Of course that doesn't help you in this particular instance, since someone has a two-card combination that makes a higher straight). [ QUOTE ] Furthermore if I showed weakness, MP1 bets then I end up calling MP2's raise anyway. [/ QUOTE ]Exactly. Good point. [ QUOTE ] What happens is I miss bets, when my hand has stood up, and pay off the same when it hasn't. [/ QUOTE ]Hard to know, isn’t it? That’s the “play good poker” aspect of Omaha-8. I think you try to put opponents on cards – but then if the pot is large enough sometimes you pay off even when you’re pretty certain you’re beaten. [ QUOTE ] So is my thinking and way I played this sensible? [/ QUOTE ]I think so. It’s not exactly the way I would have played it, but whatever. [ QUOTE ] Do I keep plugging away, perhaps exercising a little more caution regarding the nuts on the river. [/ QUOTE ] I don’t know. [ QUOTE ] Perhaps switching over to PLO would make more sense? [/ QUOTE ]Why would that make more sense? This particular hand, where you happen to flop the high nuts and the nut low draw, is easier to play after this flop in pot limit because you can make a huge bet to protect it. But another time, you’ll be on the other end of a pot sized bet with a hand to which you’d like to draw and you’ll wonder if the bettor has the nuts or is bluffing or semi-bluffing. Buzz
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#8
10-04-2007, 08:33 AM
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Re: FLO8 - Fluctations or Mistakes?
Sorry folks, I'm going to have to respond to points in digestible pieces.
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If a hand stands up, it's generally a smaller pot due to lack of aggressive players to help me push pot equity advantages. [/ QUOTE ]That could be because you always have a good starting hand and then you always have a flop fit when you stay in the hand. While that’s a good way to play, if your opponents start thinking of you as a rock, you’ll have trouble getting action when you’re in a hand. I’m guessing you’re a solid player who pushes your edges. And your opponents will notice that after a while, see you as a rock, and tighten up against you. [/ QUOTE ] This is a very good point. But the general character of these games is : 1 or 2 bets pre-flop, 1 bet on flop, usually 1 bet on turn, and 1 or 2 bets on the river. The flop play is loose, and very passive. I look for spots as you say to build the pot with advantage on flop raises, but they are few and far between. Whilst I may, get to isolate a donk bettor on a HHL flop, very many passive players will check/call rather than risking putting 2 bets in, even when they should be pushing out the Lo draws. The problem, is not a lack of 'action', it is too much of the wrong sort of action, and gutless wimpy flop play by loose-passive (and tight-passive) players, who are afraid of being 3 bet. It's not just me who never sees flop or turn raises, it's the 'agreed'way the hands are played. If the games looser, 5+ players on flops, then it's very easy to win, but very, very tedious and boring after a while. In a tight game, with Rocky play, 2,3 players on most flops, I can play poker and grind out consistent scores. I have to be very disciplined but I beat those tables. The problem area is the 'grey' zone, usually 4 players on a flop, with 2 or 3 bets pre-flop, and 1 bet on the flop, and most turns. The Starting hand advantages are marginal, and these mindless callers don't make any mistakes like folding, a hand that might win something! Finally, in Hold'em although those kind of games can be frustrating, I've always found ways to beat them, and generally can give the illusion of 'Action' so, getting paid is not a problem for me. In FLO8 with the betting structure as is, it appears that loose-aggressive pre-flop, loose-passive players post-flop can push you in the Rock direction; and simply play a mindless strategy and yet avoid through mutual support losing significant chips. There's something wrong, when top set is a 'marginal' hand, and not a no-brainer raise of a loose calling field. Top 2 pair should be where the 'margin' is. Someone calling on runner-runner str8 draw where their live cards put Lo's on the board 6 - 13 times, really are making an awful play and ought to be charged for their willingness to do it.
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#9
10-04-2007, 10:27 AM
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Re: FLO8 - Fluctations or Mistakes?
[ QUOTE ]
The problem, is not a lack of 'action', it is too much of the wrong sort of action, and gutless wimpy flop play by loose-passive (and tight-passive) players, who are afraid of being 3 bet. [/ QUOTE ]Hi Rob - The first and often the toughest step in solving a problem is recognizing what the problem is. If you truly have the problem defined correctly, now you have to employ a method that will solve the problem you have, not a method that would solve a different problem. [ QUOTE ] The problem area is the 'grey' zone, usually 4 players on a flop, with 2 or 3 bets pre-flop, and 1 bet on the flop, and most turns. [/ QUOTE ]I agree that sounds tough. Why not look for another table or another place to play, one more suited to your taste? In other words, your problem may not be the game of Omaha-8 itself, as much as the particular opponents you're finding. [ QUOTE ] The Starting hand advantages are marginal, and these mindless callers don't make any mistakes like folding, a hand that might win something! [/ QUOTE ]If they're not making mistakes like folding a hand that might win, could it be that you are not giving them credit for playing well, at least in that aspect of the game? Stop thinking about what they should be doing and are not doing. Instead start thinking about what they are doing (and then figure out how to beat that or cope with that). [ QUOTE ] In FLO8 with the betting structure as is, it appears that loose-aggressive pre-flop, loose-passive players post-flop can push you in the Rock direction; and simply play a mindless strategy and yet avoid through mutual support losing significant chips. [/ QUOTE ]They don't push me that way. Poor players who jam before the flop take away some of the edge of expert players. But they're still at a disadvantage. Preflop raises mean different things from different players. My own preflop raises mean one thing one time and a different thing another time. I want to get in situations where I have an edge and can recognize that, in other words, situations where I have favorable odds. Conversely, I want to avoid situations where I either don't have favorable odds or can't tell where I stand. When I can't tell where I stand, I'm forced to gamble. Jam before the flop or get jammed before the flop, and that's where you are. [ QUOTE ] There's something wrong, when top set is a 'marginal' hand, and not a no-brainer raise of a loose calling field. [/ QUOTE ]Top set is usually very strong (depending somewhat on exactly what rank it is - when the turn is a card of a higher rank than your set, and when the board then pairs on the river, even if you had the top set on the flop, you often end up with a losing full house). In games where you have to seriously worry about someone making a straight and/or flush, I think you play top set like a drawing hand. Whoever draws best on the river wins. Other times, where top set has a good chance to win unimproved, you can play top set more as a made hand. How best to play top set (or anything) depends on how your opponents are playing. You can't expect your opponents to play a certain way and then blame them for your defeat if they play some other way that you think is not as good. the fault is yours for not coping with the way your opponents are actually playing. I don't mean this post to sound harsh or critical. But you have to cope with the actual opposition you are facing, not the opposition you think you should be facing. Buzz
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#10
10-04-2007, 10:55 AM
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Re: FLO8 - Fluctations or Mistakes?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The problem, is not a lack of 'action', it is too much of the wrong sort of action, and gutless wimpy flop play by loose-passive (and tight-passive) players, who are afraid of being 3 bet. [/ QUOTE ]Hi Rob - The first and often the toughest step in solving a problem is recognizing what the problem is. If you truly have the problem defined correctly, now you have to employ a method that will solve the problem you have, not a method that would solve a different problem. [/ QUOTE ] As you have noticed, I've put in time analysing and really looking for leaks, missed bets, and tuning my game, and also learning to read these "unreadable" calling station type players. In FLHE, there's certain type of game where all the books are completely wrong, and a radically different strategy becomes wildly profitable, though it's 'unsound' play and would expose you to exploitation by good players. My problem is, I can't see any such radical tactic that can overcome the basic mindless method of play in these passive FLO8 games with certain number of flop callers. Free card plays are broke, because the turn changes things so radically against a field. You're going to have to have a near nut hand on the river most times, and it's going to cost you speculatively pre-flop to get there. There's a problem of 'Duplication' where you split with a loose-passive player on the river, when in a more aggressive game, you could have figured out the other players hand and folded on the flop. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The problem area is the 'grey' zone, usually 4 players on a flop, with 2 or 3 bets pre-flop, and 1 bet on the flop, and most turns. [/ QUOTE ]I agree that sounds tough. Why not look for another table or another place to play, one more suited to your taste? In other words, your problem may not be the game of Omaha-8 itself, as much as the particular opponents you're finding. [/ QUOTE ] I tend to get a choice of 1 $1/$2 game, or a 25c/50c game, on Poker Stars the busiest site; and the waiting lists can be long (as much as 4-7). The 50c/$1 game was the Rock-iest a while ago, tough but profitable if you avoided falling into traps but because it was such a ridiculously tough game for the stakes level, noone much has played it most days. Why not play Fish at $1/2? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The Starting hand advantages are marginal, and these mindless callers don't make any mistakes like folding, a hand that might win something! [/ QUOTE ]If they're not making mistakes like folding a hand that might win, could it be that you are not giving them credit for playing well, at least in that aspect of the game? [/ QUOTE ] Their strategy is this : Pre-flop: If everyone's in the mood raise, or 3 bet pre-flop, but usually limp in or cold call with a huge range of trashy trap hands. Flop: Auto-call, unless I was the lead bettor pre-flop. Then I usually bet (and I'm bluffing 80% of time in this spot), but sometimes in position check behind. Never fold. Turn: This is 2nd real decision point. If I can't see a way to win 1/2 the fold to a bet. If I have near nuts bet, raise someone mindlessly if I have the nuts (any direction); no need to think about building the pot up. River: Always call unless another Fish bets or raises. Fold if have nothing. [ QUOTE ] Stop thinking about what they should be doing and are not doing. Instead start thinking about what they are doing (and then figure out how to beat that or cope with that). [/ QUOTE ] That's the problem, and why I posted on "Betting Structure" last week. I know exactly how they play, why; but I'm struggling to find opportunities to exploit the play. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] In FLO8 with the betting structure as is, it appears that loose-aggressive pre-flop, loose-passive players post-flop can push you in the Rock direction; and simply play a mindless strategy and yet avoid through mutual support losing significant chips. [/ QUOTE ]They don't push me that way. Poor players who jam before the flop take away some of the edge of expert players. But they're still at a disadvantage. Preflop raises mean different things from different players. My own preflop raises mean one thing one time and a different thing another time. I want to get in situations where I have an edge and can recognize that, in other words, situations where I have favorable odds. Conversely, I want to avoid situations where I either don't have favorable odds or can't tell where I stand. When I can't tell where I stand, I'm forced to gamble. Jam before the flop or get jammed before the flop, and that's where you are. [/ QUOTE ] The trouble is, your implied odds are cut down. Now you have to recognise pot equity advantages and also call much more post-flop. But at end of the day, you can do little in FL to win more pots, what matters is that you tend to win bigger pots, and spend less investing on your losers. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] There's something wrong, when top set is a 'marginal' hand, and not a no-brainer raise of a loose calling field. [/ QUOTE ]Top set is usually very strong (depending somewhat on exactly what rank it is - when the turn is a card of a higher rank than your set, and when the board then pairs on the river, even if you had the top set on the flop, you often end up with a losing full house). In games where you have to seriously worry about someone making a straight and/or flush, I think you play top set like a drawing hand. Whoever draws best on the river wins. Other times, where top set has a good chance to win unimproved, you can play top set more as a made hand. How best to play top set (or anything) depends on how your opponents are playing. You can't expect your opponents to play a certain way and then blame them for your defeat if they play some other way that you think is not as good. the fault is yours for not coping with the way your opponents are actually playing. [/ QUOTE ] True, and absolutely agreed. The reason for this post, is not to 'complain' but to check on my analysis, and also seek any ideas to exploit what is very poor play. [ QUOTE ] I don't mean this post to sound harsh or critical. But you have to cope with the actual opposition you are facing, not the opposition you think you should be facing. [/ QUOTE ] Totally agree. But I also have to recognise which games are 'good' and which ones are not worth spending time with. In FLHE I could move tables, and also gain edge by seat selection. This is proving less practical in FLO8 due to shortage of games, and long waiting time to join the table. What I'm doing, is pursuing every possible avenue of advantage, and trying to leave no stone unturned. I could just be running bad, but doing calcs, I think there's reasons why beating the rake by much is tough, and it's down to the betting structure (in my view). The biggest fault in FLO8 players is loose flop calls, but without some action players to increase the flop betting, these calls are only marginal errors. They put made hands into worse reverse implied odds, because you'll miss lots of river bets if you're too cautious, but also lose extra bets on many occasions if you are brave.
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Hybrid Mode
