I really, really want to fold on the turn

One Outer · #1 10-01-2007, 07:44 PM

Canterbury Park 6/12 full game

Villain is actually someone I'm fairly familiar with. He thinks that he is a TAG, but he actually plays too many hands preflop. He's not real excessive. He's probably seeing 4 in 10 flops. He does weird stuff like call 2 cold with T8s on the button with only the raiser in. He is above average postflop and is capable of thinking his way through situations but generally doesn't do it very well. In particular he checks too many river scare cards and misses lots of river bets with top pair type hands. The two middle position players are typical white loose passive guys.

HERO is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero raises, 2 folds, MP calls, HJ calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls

Flop (6 handed, 12 SB)

K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB and BB check, Hero bets, MP and HJ call, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds

Turn (4 handed, 8.5 BB)

6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB checks, Hero bets, MP and HJ call, <font color="red">SB raises </font>, Hero...?

I don't think I can fold here, but I really want to. I do think that the worst thing I can do is call because I want to force the at least one heart draw behind me to call two more. If we're going to continue the hand I feel that raising is the best play. I don't think we're going to see two pair here from villain very often. And the Ah is filthy even if that were the case. Any ideas? Thoughts?

Scarmiglio · #2 10-01-2007, 07:53 PM

Calling is the best option. SB may have 2 pair - like 68s and you can catch a 3, K, or A to beat him. On the other hand, he could have a set of sixes. your 3-bet will be 4 bet and now you're putting in a bunch of money drawing dead. He could also be raising a hand like KQ or KJ and your hand may be good. You also don't know for sure that one of the other players is on a heart draw. They may have a weaker King or a hand like A8. Just call.

One Outer · #3 10-01-2007, 08:07 PM

Great post. It got me thinking. I don't think I ever get four bet by 88, 66 or 33 here. I raised preflop UTG, and this particular Villain will put me on KK and start calling down if I three pop him. Does that change your opinion at all?

Scarmiglio · #4 10-01-2007, 08:28 PM

No. If I'm behind I don't want to put in more money than I have to. Keep in mind that if he does have a set you're drawing dead. If he has 2-pairs you're drawing to 8 (maybe 7) outs. Your 3 bet probably won't push a flush draw out (they still have odds to call) but it will push out hands that you have dominated and want to call.

jesse8888 · #5 10-01-2007, 09:43 PM

I call him here and am not too happy about it. You can't fold in a pot of this size. I agree with Tom Brady (who just threw a nice pick), raising is spewy.

One Outer · #6 10-01-2007, 10:41 PM

If I call, the river comes a heart that doesn't help my hand and SB bets what do I do? I've still got the two guys behind me. Or can we be pretty sure at that point that folding is cool because he's betting the heart?

chesspain · #7 10-02-2007, 06:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Great post. It got me thinking. I don't think I ever get four bet by 88, 66 or 33 here. I raised preflop UTG, and this particular Villain will put me on KK and start calling down if I three pop him. Does that change your opinion at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

Reraising the turn is spew, since this weak-tight player is not checkraising the turn with a hand like A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Since you are almost certainly behind here, it would be foolish to charge the other players who are chasing, since you would also be charging yourself.

I think calling is O.K., but only if you have the discipline to fold the river UI, especially if either of the chasers calls the SB's river bet.