This whole "don't call UTG raises" needs to stop

[FGators]

Is starting to really wear on me. The funny thing about this phenomena is that practically every TAG that I play against, or LAG too, has the same UTG and MP opening ranges. So if in your strategy posts you say "fold preflop, QJs plays [censored] against an UTG open from a 18/16" then you damn well better be saying the same thing if a guy opens in MP.

If you aren't then don't give people flack for calling an UTG raise with 109s if you instacall and see a flop in middle position.

Group middle position and UTG the same, and the cutoff and the button the same, because they together are much more similar.

I've been tracking this preflop stuff and all these 2+2 people are opening 108s UTG now, as well as 108s in MP. They don't adjust their play any differently in the one hole or the two hole, just as they get ridiculously loose in the cutoff and ridiculously loose on the button.

Also don't go into super nit mode if a TAG opens UTG, a guy calls in the cutoff/button,etc. and you are in the blinds and debating a squeeze just because the guy opened UTG. I see strategy post after strategy post where a guy says, "I'm running TAGish around 19/16. I open UTG to $8 with 108 suited, button calls, BB calls." If you are in the blinds get over the phobia of always beleiving the UTG guy has a big hand. He does occasionally but a lot of the time squeeze that [censored] because you will be picking up the $8,the $8, and the blinds because he can' call $38 with a suited connector if he has a $200 stack if he has a brain.

So basically these TAG UTG opening ranges are wide and are starting to mesh into the cutoff and button more so than they are nittying it up and folding lots of connectors and offsuit/suited broadways up front. Adjust your play to it or else you'll be out like broomcorn's uncle from Super System.

[Unknown Soldier]

T8s is the nuts though

[Spinners]

Nice post gators. I agree, we dont wanna turn out like broomcorns uncle..

[ofishstix]

people seem to be consistently opening hands liek t8s from utg and mp but that doesnt mean they arent aware of their position. playing hands like this from utg is much better than playing kjo. their ranges are def. narrower from utg; it's just that their ranges are more polarized.

[FGators]

[ QUOTE ]
people seem to be consistently opening hands liek t8s from utg and mp but that doesnt mean they arent aware of their position. playing hands like this from utg is much better than playing kjo. their ranges are def. narrower from utg; it's just that their ranges are more polarized.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I personally don't think they have a narrower range UTG than they do from Middle Position.

I think they have a drastic difference between UTG and the cutoff, just as I think that difference is drastic from MP and the cutoff.

[ofishstix]

my raising range got ~6% wider from utg to mp and from mp to CO. thats a pretty big difference, and i think i ignore position more than most.

[Daddy Warbucks]

Seen as you're pretty much specifically referring to my post today, here goes.

Firstly, i said readless you should fold QJs against an UTG raiser. That's fine if you think 2+2ers are opening T8s UTG. But thats by no means true for an unknown.

Secondly, my comment was specifically directed at the QJs holding. If you give a standard UTG opening range for an unknown, most people would agree its probably at least 88+, ATs+, KJs+, AJ+ and KQ+. How many of these hands are QJ in good shape against and how many have reverse implied odds? In this situation, I'd much rather call with 65s or 78s than QJs.

[tufat23]

[ QUOTE ]
T8s is the nuts though

[/ QUOTE ]


not in ept events [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]

I see strategy post after strategy post where a guy says, "I'm running TAGish around 19/16. I open UTG to $8 with 108 suited, button calls, BB calls." If you are in the blinds get over the phobia of always beleiving the UTG guy has a big hand. He does occasionally but a lot of the time squeeze that [censored] because you will be picking up the $8,the $8, and the blinds because he can' call $38 with a suited connector if he has a $200 stack if he has a brain.


[/ QUOTE ]

So we should frequently risk $38 to try to win $19? We need to win 2/3rds of the time to break even on this play, assuming not another penny goes into the pot.

If EITHER villain four-bets all-in with some sneaky monster that just woke up, we're folding and we're out $38. Even if villain is raising 18% of his hands, that's going to happen maybe 1/6th of the time. So of the remaining 5/6ths of the time, we now have to win 80% of the hands to BREAK EVEN.

If either villain smooth-calls, we're now in that incredibly unenviable position of:

1. Out of position
2. Huge pot
3. Mediocre holding
4. Opponent with a reasonably strong hand

Turning this into a steady profit is tricky at best. If we automatically c-bet we're now risking an EXTRA $55 or $60 with a nothing hand, and if we don't we're opening ourselves up to getting seriously outplayed postflop.

Three-betting light from the blinds is getting quite common these days, but I think a good player who is willing to either get very aggressive preflop or very tricky pre- and post-flop can completely neutralize the value of this strategy. Maybe the point of this thread is that most opponents aren't clever enough to adjust properly, but if we're talking about decent TAGs, I think they don't need to adjust much to destroy the EV from this move: tighten up a tiny bit and call down slightly light and you've got a deadly response to the light three-bettor.

[carrotsnake]

fgators, just by using your logic(I'm not actually gonna go into anything else cuz theres no point), we could definately 3 bet to 38 all the time and "he can't call with a suited connector if he has a brain", so Im' wondering, whats the specific reasoning people don't 3 bet to 38 then all the time ?

I'm not really agreeing or disagreeing, and while I sorta agree with pokey above, I disagree a bit too cuz brain villians almost never smooth call there, but whatever. I'm merely curious, why did you say this ? Cuz tbh, I 100% want people to call me with suited connectors when I 3 bet, no matter what I have