1.00-2.00......KQs in sb

[euroglot]

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero ?

No real reads...possible blindsteal..

should I raise preflop?

what to do on the flop?

[NevadaKaz]

With no reads it is hard to say blindsteal, so I woul dplay it cautiously, including just the call pre flop.

Not a great flop with the Ace being there and us being readless, I would b/f the flop.

[KitCloudkicker]

3 bets preflop.

as played check the flop.

[OziBattler]

3 bet preflop since raise is from CO and you have a pretty good hand unless he's a nit. IMHO even unknowns at 1/2 know how to raise light when its folded to them in Button/CO. ALos dont be giving BB 5:1 to call. Get this HU And see how much CO likes his hand...will he call or cap?

IMHO by just calling preflop, esp if CO is aggressive you basically are only going to win the hand if you make a hand whereas CO wont have to actually make a hand to win.

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO by just calling preflop, esp if CO is aggressive you basically are only going to win the hand if you make a hand whereas CO wont have to actually make a hand to win.

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good point.

alot of players on this(and other) forums misplay their hands when they have the initiative with position. in your case aussie stated good reasons as to why it's so valueable to have the initiative out of position.

[Aces McGee]

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[ QUOTE ]
IMHO by just calling preflop, esp if CO is aggressive you basically are only going to win the hand if you make a hand whereas CO wont have to actually make a hand to win.

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good point.

alot of players on this(and other) forums misplay their hands when they have the initiative with position. in your case aussie stated good reasons as to why it's so valueable to have the initiative out of position.

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I actually think that "having the initiative" and "taking control of the hand" are pretty overrated concepts in limit poker. Our opponent can take it right back by capping preflop or raising our inevitable flop bet.

In some ways, three-betting even limits our options and gives our opponent the advantage, because we're going to end up betting a lot of flops we don't necessarily like.

On certain flops, like when multiple paint cards hit, three-betting becomes the preferable preflop action when we have a less than premium hand, because our bet on the flop is believable. Other times, like when all low cards hit, we'll have rather flat-called the raise with our jack-high or whatever, because the lack of a preflop three-bet means we are more likely to have connected with a low, unscary board.

In fact, my decision whether to take the initiative in a hand depends far more on my opponent than on my cards. Some players are skeptical, others easy to convince. Some are aggressive, others let you walk all over them. Still others give you the initiative and call all the way, allowing you to hang yourself with your own rope. It's highly situation specific. It's something to consider, but I think it's overrated here.

-McGee

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually think that "having the initiative" and "taking control of the hand" are pretty overrated concepts in limit poker. Our opponent can take it right back by capping preflop or raising our inevitable flop bet.

In some ways, three-betting even limits our options and gives our opponent the advantage, because we're going to end up betting a lot of flops we don't necessarily like.

[/ QUOTE ]

first things first. just because we 3bet, we don't HAVE to bet the flop. i don't think we're 3betting only for the initiative. we're probably 3betting for value because we're ahead of the typical 1/2 player's CO opening range for a full game.

add to this the benefit of decreasing his stealing for the rest of the session and it adds value to the reraise. inducing an opponent to play more straightforwardly when he has position on us is a good thing. even moreso when we have money involuntarily posted.

as you alluded to, a big part in maintaining the initiative of the action and how it influences the way a hand can play out is dependent upon our opponents and their tendencies. right now, we don't have the level of information to ascertain the truly optimal play against this specific opponent.

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On certain flops, like when multiple paint cards hit, three-betting becomes the preferable preflop action when we have a less than premium hand, because our bet on the flop is believable. Other times, like when all low cards hit, we'll have rather flat-called the raise with our jack-high or whatever, because the lack of a preflop three-bet means we are more likely to have connected with a low, unscary board.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is actually pretty dependent upon our image and our opponent(once again).

it probably doesn't do that much good to speculate the actual action on those particular flops without a read, but even so it's pretty much a wash as described anyway.

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In fact, my decision whether to take the initiative in a hand depends far more on my opponent than on my cards. Some players are skeptical, others easy to convince. Some are aggressive, others let you walk all over them. Still others give you the initiative and call all the way, allowing you to hang yourself with your own rope. It's highly situation specific. It's something to consider, but I think it's overrated here.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with almost all of what you are saying here.

i'm not convinced the initiative can't help us, though. all things being equal, not many typical 1/2 opponents are going to up and cap hands behind our KQs. we should usually be able to not only 3bet for value(even if the BB comes along we're likely making money) but to help define the CO's(and maybe even BB's) range in some situations. even if it's rare, the info we gain early might allow us to find out about the strength of our opponents' holdings which might help avoid losing multiple bets on the big streets when we flop a decent hand but happen to be behind.

being out of position costs you. assuming your image is solid, being the aggressor can make it easier to play when out of position. against the correct opponents, you can combine this with the right of first bluff(which is a sometimes overlooked benefit to playing OOP) and you can increase you chances to win at the cost of small bets, not big ones.

calling is a good optiongiven KQs plays well multiway and shorthanded. i might call some % of the time. it also increases our implied odds.

but there are several other factors that come into play when making this decision and it still lends me to think 3betting and taking the preflop initiative is the play.

[James.]

3bet pf. get it HU and play some poker. against alot of opponents in this situation, check-calling down is perfectly fine.

as played, c/r.

[DeucesNeverLoses]

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as played, c/r.

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Eww...the fact we don't have BDFD makes this SO spewy. I agree w/ everyone else that we need to 3b pre. But, as played, I like c/f or b/f flop.

[Aces McGee]

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Eww...the fact we don't have BDFD makes this SO spewy

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This overstates a bit, don't you think? Yeah, having a backdoor flush draw is nice, but it can't possibly turn a check-fold or bet-fold into a check-raise in this small pot.

-McGee