Deep stack (300-1000bb+) theory--common scenarios PREFLOP

[dlpnyc21]

I have been thinking a lot lately about deep stack (300bb++) live play, and here are some common scenarios/concepts that I've been wondering about. I'd like other hsnl'ers (or others) input on these scenarios/strategies. I’m sure this has been posted about before, but I’d like to see some discussion in a unified thread. I hope this generates some interesting ideas. To be clear, please focus your discussion on responses specifically for deep-stack full-ring (7-9-handed) live (could be online but rarely do you see this) games with effective stacks of 300-1000++ bb. Also assume an average table, filled with a few lags, a few tags, a few passive players, a few loose players, and a few nits (in other words, the composition of the table is well-rounded stylistically). For the sake of discussion, assume 25/50 nl with 15-50k stacks (erring on the higher stack size).

1. PREFLOP
--Raising preflop and vpip/pfr ratio and preflop raise size. Assume for 6max 100bb stacks standard vpip/pfr for most players is somewhere between 17-30/15-24 (rare, if not unique, to see winning players outside this parameter). For 9 handed, let's say 14-24/8-18 (if these numbers are off, please correct me). Assume the vpip/pfr ratio is also very slightly >1, with anything less than .6 very rare.

Now, when I watch the biggest winners in deep-stack live games, these ratios get thrown all out of whack. What vpip, pfr, and vpip/pfr ratio do you guys presume is theoretically optimal for deep-stack live play, and more importantly, why?. Note also that there is characteristically much more limping deep-stack live than in any online 100bb game. Is this somehow exploitable, or is it more optimal? In a standard live game, if there are 3 or 4 limpers to a LP player, is it more optimal to raise or limp with a hand like 67cc from LP, assuming, most if not all of the limpers will call. Essentially you are bloating the pot hoping to flop big (not a bad thing maybe?). But raising marginal hands in position over time becomes extremely expensive. Also, if you vary your preflop raise standards, your hands become easier to read. Lets say there is a limp for 50, 50, 50 and it's to you with 67cc, 55, 99, or AQ on the btn, what are you making it? Note the inherent assumption that unless you make it some unreasonable amount, like 2k, you will most likely have a 4-5 way pot if you make it something like 300-400 (8bb). Now, you rarely see raise sizes this big online, what is the reason for this? If you have a hand like AA, ideally you’d like to see a flop 2-3 ways, but hands like 67cc seem to play better multi-way. Is this correct? However, how do you accomplish seeing flops like AA 2-3 ways and flops like small pps, suited connectors, or broadway cards less ways without varying preflop raise size and therefore “giving away” the strength of your hand? Also, what range of hands become profitable to limp from EP (UTG through UTG+3)?

What sorts of hands from MP-LP are you cold-calling an EP players raise with, assuming you expect 1 or more caller behind? What hands are you overlimping with from MP-LP?
NOTE: Please only focus on hands that you WOULD/MIGHT play in deep-stacked live games that you would NOT play in 100bb stacks..

*Perhaps most important point: What sorts hands are you defending from the blinds, assuming a MP raise from a LAG and a few callers in between? (again, different hands than you would in a standard 100bb stack game, as we know these).
Finally, if you posit that a less convergent vpip/pfr ratio is more optimal in deep-stacked play, please support this position and discuss what would be the consequences if your ratio approached closer to 1, and why this might not be optimal.

This may seem pretty elementary to a lot of you, but deep-stack live play really begins preflop, and I see such wildly differently styles comparing online to live deep-stack play that I’m wondering how I can possibly exploit live players’ tendencies more effectively. I have a lot more thoughts on deep-stack live play as it gets more complicated per street, but I’ll save those thoughts and just focus on preflop play for now and see if this goes anywhere.

Thanks,
Dlpnyc21

[Ship Ship McGipp]

with 1000 bbs i could convince you that limping preflop every single hand is profitable against most tables

[Stinger88]

I'm not that experienced with deep stacked live play, but I think you should be raising preflop to an amount where you'll average just one or two callers. For 76s type hands more callers would be optimal, but it would be too obvious if you varied your raise sizes. So if you're raising to 8xbb and getting 3-4 callers, maybe try 10xbb. Or maybe I'm way off base here.

[dlpnyc21]

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I'm not that experienced with deep stacked live play, but I think you should be raising preflop to an amount where you'll average just one or two callers. For 76s type hands more callers would be optimal, but it would be too obvious if you varied your raise sizes. So if you're raising to 8xbb and getting 3-4 callers, maybe try 10xbb. Or maybe I'm way off base here.

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10xx bb might average 3ish anyway, is it better to just limp these type of hands instead of raise them? How can you accomplish disguising your range then?

[Stinger88]

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I'm not that experienced with deep stacked live play, but I think you should be raising preflop to an amount where you'll average just one or two callers. For 76s type hands more callers would be optimal, but it would be too obvious if you varied your raise sizes. So if you're raising to 8xbb and getting 3-4 callers, maybe try 10xbb. Or maybe I'm way off base here.

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10xx bb might average 3ish anyway, is it better to just limp these type of hands instead of raise them? How can you accomplish disguising your range then?

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I think with stacks this deep you want to raise if you have position on the field.

[ActionJeff]

raise large amounts in position. the optimal size depends upon the action before you, the stack sizes, and the players as well as tons of other factors. In bad position this deep (before co, or certainly before hijak) don't raise big. Either limp or raise small amounts. This is especially true for full ring. Hu in the blinds vs. a raise from someone other than the sb, never reraise. Play tight and call or fold. I think these are helpful guidelines.

-Jeff

[IRIVERU]

u wanna play suited connector type hands 3 way max really. deep stacked in position u have to raise big to vary ur play obviously since ur gonna be raising big with big pairs. But you dont want to limping say after 4 people limped and then a big raise comes and lots of players call, even though ur getting good odds. 6c7c doesnt play well in a 7 handed pot. your draws are gonna be up against bigger draws alot.

[sMethod]

Most of my poker experience has been playing full ring live games with old pro gamblers that have been playing these types of games/styles their whole lives. I got lucky that I started my poker career near the casino that held all these old degens because I learned a lot. These guys will buyin for 500bb min. and play 6 days a week for 10-16 hours a day and thats their living/life.

First things first, you must protect you stack if you feel you will be unable to get away from a hand post flop because one of your limpers is super laggy post flop or you and one of your potential OOP callers have some history that would make it easier for him to sell the fact he is bluffing you later in the hand.
So lesson one is its ok to make big (10-20xbb) preflop raises but only when a situation warrants it. The way you counter giving away your hand size is by still making a lot of 3-5xbb raises in pos. with your normal raising range plus the big pocket pairs too. When you make these smaller raises with AA&KK you must obv. be very care full post flop, if the pot is multi way your usually just waiting to hit a set.
The inverse is true for the big raise occasionally (more on the side of rarely if your not experienced at reading live players post flop) make it 10-20 BBs with a 6-7s on the button. At a live game this play is marginal unless you have built some respect or are going to be playing with the same crowd of regulars daily.

If its your first and possibly only trip to this casino then start out a bit nitty and just test the waters with a bigger size raise and see what people are willing to call especially if their is more than one deep stacker yet to act behind you.

So essentially what you must do is raise the stakes of the game with bigger preflop raises so you are theoretically correct to go bust with big hands post flop, or continue to make your standard raise size and adjust how you play post flop.

This stuff should seem basic to most HSNL players but I know most of you don't have a lot of super deep experience due to cap buyins online. These types of games are much better to start short in because you get tripled or quadrupled up in deep stackers cross fire so frequently, but if you insist on covering the table start off setting your own pace until they catch up or catch on.

[KingDan]

Am I correct in thinking the value for small pocket pairs goes down after a certain point (say 200-300 bb)?

[raptor517]

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Am I correct in thinking the value for small pocket pairs goes down after a certain point (say 200-300 bb)?

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assuming the players are somewhat competent, yes.