Please help me settle an argument - 400NL hand

[UK Raz]

Me and a mate like to play a little poker together with a few cold ones occasionally. Were very competitive and not shy about our (sometimes) different views on strategy, so it can often get heated, but generally we learn from each other and its all good. Today though he really hacked me off and im still stewing about it 5 hours later.

$400NL 6 handed game, "Bob" (very aggresive) raises and cutoff calls, i call on the button with 89clubs. The flop comes 237 all clubs. Bob bets, cutoff folds and i raise quite hard. Bob goes all in and i call, correctly thinking he had the bare Ac. Turn comes a club, Bob shows AcTs and i lose a $900 pot. Fair enough.

While im deciding on the flop raise i hear my mate say he'd just call the flop and see what came. His reasoning - if a club comes on the turn i could slow down, limiting the damage. Bob is aggressive and will likely follow up on the turn and i could raise all in then, giving less chance of a suck out.

I disagreed, wanting to charge Bob a premium to hit his club. When i got him all in on the flop in my mind that was the optimal result, regardless of how the cards fell. I must be 70-75% to win the pot. Calling the flop seemed weak, there were too many cards that would slow Bob down.

So after the hand my pal starts up again telling me he'd have played it different (better), basically the last thing i wanted to hear after being sucked out on. A lengthy argument broke out after which we agreed to disagree.

Now i have to admit he's a very successful 400NL player while im still scrapping it out at 100 and 200 (as he smugly pointed out while we were "debating" the hand). But he has to be wrong here doesnt he? Im fairly sure he was just arguing for the sake of arguing but id love to hear from some impartial poker players. How would you have played the hand?

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

[wdead]

IN position I dont mind flatting the flop and raising the turn. OOP I would raise flop. Advantage of waiting til the turn is that your equity goes WAY up vs Big pair w/ club combos. Disadvantages are that villain could have a set and make a full, or make a flush.

IF you knew villain had AcXo I think calling flop raising turn is obv a better play, but villain could have a fairly wide range. Id say both lines are fine but your friends line is a little better IMO.

[Rainclouds]

You are definitely right and raising the flop is the only right play. It's quite simple: you figure you have the best hand so you get as much money in as possible. Waiting for a turn is giving your opponent a free card to draw out on you which is very bad.

And fwiw, with the way the hand played out you maximized your equity.

[wdead]

[ QUOTE ]
You are definitely right and raising the flop is the only right play. It's quite simple: you figure you have the best hand so you get as much money in as possible. Waiting for a turn is giving your opponent a free card to draw out on you which is very bad.

And fwiw, with the way the hand played out you maximized your equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, if villain has a high club or a set waiting to raise a blank turn maximizes your equity. This is because he will have less cards to hit his outs. The only downside is you DONT know what villain has, so its possible you could get your money in dead on the turn, or lose to a flush on the turn. However, if villain has Ac and he is as described, he will shove flop neway, so waiting for the turn is cheaper. The only problem occurs when you wait for turn, it pairs, and you get in drawing dead vs a boat.

[Etats360]

You played it fine.

[UK Raz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are definitely right and raising the flop is the only right play. It's quite simple: you figure you have the best hand so you get as much money in as possible. Waiting for a turn is giving your opponent a free card to draw out on you which is very bad.

And fwiw, with the way the hand played out you maximized your equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, if villain has a high club or a set waiting to raise a blank turn maximizes your equity. This is because he will have less cards to hit his outs. The only downside is you DONT know what villain has, so its possible you could get your money in dead on the turn, or lose to a flush on the turn. However, if villain has Ac and he is as described, he will shove flop neway, so waiting for the turn is cheaper. The only problem occurs when you wait for turn, it pairs, and you get in drawing dead vs a boat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting, 2 conflicting views already and i really thought it was clear cut. Dont tell me i owe him an apology [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Seems i have a lot to learn still. Thanks for the replies so far.

[wdead]

I really like waiting for the turn here. Its an advanced play that maximizes your equity vs hands with lots of outs. I mentioned its downside.

[UK Raz]

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I really like waiting for the turn here. Its an advanced play that maximizes your equity vs hands with lots of outs. I mentioned its downside.

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I cant tell him that, id never hear the last of it!

[terp]

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I really like waiting for the turn here. Its an advanced play that maximizes your equity vs hands with lots of outs. I mentioned its downside.

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lol @ calling this advanced.

[kolotoure]

[ QUOTE ]
I really like waiting for the turn here. Its an advanced play that maximizes your equity vs hands with lots of outs. I mentioned its downside.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my line here