You make the call! Floor decision time...

[Garland]

Bay 101 $40/$80 game. $10 red chip game.

Crazy loose aggressive bordering on maniac MP raises (raises most hands folded to him), next guy (NG) calls by putting 2 red chips and a lot of $5 yellow chips (triggering the initial confusion), I’m next to act and fold my cheese, folds to SB who puts in 2 red chips, BB checks.

Dealer flops:

T 9 8 rainbow. SB checks, BB checks, MP lights up a little and bets, NG calls, SB tells the floor to come over and notes something is wrong with the pot. He said he didn’t notice the pot was raised. MP, obviously loving the flop, wants the hands in the blinds folded and to continue the action. Floor is called over. Says the flop must come back and the action is returned to pre-flop where blinds must decide to call or fold. MP is livid. The flop is turned face down. Now SB folds his hand, but BB knowing he’s going to see a different flop, calls the pre-flop raise. Now dealer is instructed to put the flop aside and out of play! And then use the next three card from the stub as the flop Q 9 5 rainbow (or something to that effect). MP is now really livid!

Floor said the flop cards will be reshuffled in the deck after the flop, but MP can’t be consoled.

He contends that if the flop doesn’t play, at least the 3 flop cards should be shuffled before a new flop is produced. At this point I figure this to be a bloody and time consuming mess (thank God it wasn’t a time collection game) and leave and talk to Haakee playing the $100/$200 game for a good 10 minutes looking back and forth while the 3 new flop cards were never moved and no turn and river were produced for quite some time.

I finally returned after 10-12 minutes to get the next hand.

So what’s the right call?

Garland

[HOWMANY]

Have a better dealer preflop.

This situation is so retarded/never should have happened I honestly have no idea what should be done. Pretty much anything I can think of is going to leave someone at least a little unhappy here. Starting the hand over from MP's pfr seems a bit absurd considering how much action has taken place already. But if that isn't done then the people that didn't put in enough chips can now angle their way into a good spot by having seen the flop cheaply and then choosing to put in the extra chips for the preflop raise. Killing the hands of those that didn't put in enough will leave them unhappy too.

[RR]

There is no raise. If multple people (blinds, dealer, and OP) proceed as if there was no raise the raiser needs to point out he raised.

edit: this is incorrect, it was pointed out to me later in the threa that I misread the OP. -RR

[uclaben]

If they're going to redeal the flop, how in the world are they not shuffling the three cards back into the deck?

[Andy B]

Because the floor is incompetent?

RR is correct, of course. It is incumbent upon the raiser to protect his own action.

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no raise. If multple people (blinds, dealer, and OP) proceed as if there was no raise the raiser needs to point out he raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely correct and if I were MP I'd be livid.

[elgreenhornet]

so ng didnt put in 12 yellows? if he did thats probly why the sb may not have seen the 2 reds with them. he gets a cheap flop and if he wants to call would have to make up the difference

[SyrialKilla]

Whatever the raise originally was, the fact that the dealer had time to pull all bets into the pot and burn and flop is odd. If I were to raise on a poker game I know I want people calling my raise to see the flop or folding. A check from the big blind should have told the raiser something. Either way, with two checks a bet and a call on the flop, signifigant action has transpired. Signifigant action is the All Mighty when it comes to any poker, any style, any limit. That's two players acting with money *bet call or raise* or three without *check fold*. Since their was signifigant action the flop should have stayed and the raiser should have been returned the amount he raised.

SO that's what I would have called..flop stays, raise amount is returned to the raiser..play on

[J.A.Sucker]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no raise. If multple people (blinds, dealer, and OP) proceed as if there was no raise the raiser needs to point out he raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somebody already called the raise and then I think the button folded. This is a slam dunk at Bay 101. Sorry, you are wrong on this one Randy. SB is shooting an angle here and the BB now has more information about the maniac's hand, which he is using now.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
SB is shooting an angle here

[/ QUOTE ]

While NG was calling, I think the blinds were yelling "Don't raise! Don't raise!" and were 'relieved' to see NG only "limp" with a bunch of yellows not noticing MP initially raised.

I'm not sure about this. Although I see what you mean, I really think SB was trying to be honest. I think the fact after the flop he sees MP in the hand and knowing he raises every time it comes to him triggered to him that something was very wrong with the scenario.

[ QUOTE ]
BB now has more information about the maniac's hand, which he is using now.

[/ QUOTE ]

BB was not sophisticated enough to use the info about Maniac's hand. He's really not a good player.

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you enjoyed your conversation with haakee.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been a couple of years since I saw him live, so yeah it was nice to chat while they sorted out the mess.

A side question: What's the dealer's responsibility in all this? Isn’t he/she supposed to keep track of the action too? Or does this become an internal matter between the dealer and management to be discussed after a push?

And to J.A.: In your DVD, if you hold a pocket pair, and your opponent has two overs with a gutshot on the flop, the pocket pair is the 60:40 favorite and not vice versa as mentioned. I’m guessing a 2nd edition isn’t coming out, so I’m telling you just for kicks.

Garland