NL30 (200bb buyin): Trips and we're 450 bbs deep

[Scuba Chuck]

Hand is from memory.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.15/$0.30 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $135
BB: $66.80
UTG: $70.25
CO: $26.65
Hero (BTN): $225

Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 Players)
2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.20</font>, SB calls, BB folds

Flop: ($2.55) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $1.90</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $4.50</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $9.00</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $25 </font>

How committed are YOU to this hand? I'm the best player at the table. SB has a loose understanding of the game, which means he's better than average.

[Milky]

Do you remember stats? Would he call from SB w/KJ, JT, etc? Would he play trips so fast like this? If he's decent I'd think 33 is a bit more likely. Who just calls his flop raise to see what he does on turn?

[monkover]

well you can´t squarely put him on 33 can you? there are enough j that come along for the ride... this is only 30nl

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
well you can´t squarely put him on 33 can you? there are enough j that come along for the ride... this is only 30nl

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm thinking Ac is the card you want to see on the turn.

Mack

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you remember stats? Would he call from SB w/KJ, JT, etc? Would he play trips so fast like this? If he's decent I'd think 33 is a bit more likely. Who just calls his flop raise to see what he does on turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, JT, QJ and KJ are in his range. Yes he would play fast/check-raise with those hands.

As to how **fish** play this hand with 33, I think they tend to incorrectly slow down in spots like this, so they don't scare me off.

[JimboNYY24]

Sick spot. You can always call and reevaluate turn. Boat draw!!

EDIT: Quad draw too.

[faarcyde]

33 is a cooler, call.

[stonescar]

I don't think I can fold this to someone with a "loose understanding of the game". The action in this hand might have influenced me on this, but I think I like calling his raise on flop, having position and all. I would probably raise a non-club turn card, and call if he bets on a club. I'd like to go to showdown with this hand, and I don't really see the point in bloating the pot when you're this deep if this guy is semi-decent.

As played I would just call, you're wa/wb, try to get a cheap showdown unimproved.

[shoxbb6]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I can fold this to someone with a "loose understanding of the game". The action in this hand might have influenced me on this, but I think I like calling his raise on flop, having position and all. I would probably raise a non-club turn card, and call if he bets on a club. I'd like to go to showdown with this hand, and I don't really see the point in bloating the pot when you're this deep if this guy is semi-decent.

As played I would just call, you're wa/wb, try to get a cheap showdown unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]
Calling his raise first check/raise is so bad. You have trips, top kicker on a very drawy board and very deep. If you want to get any value at all from your hand you need to start building this pot and you also need to be able to get protection from club draws out there.

[stonescar]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling his raise first check/raise is so bad. You have trips, top kicker on a very drawy board and very deep. If you want to get any value at all from your hand you need to start building this pot and you also need to be able to get protection from club draws out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not experienced in deep stack situations, and I'm not saying my line or reasoning is perfect - I'm open for discussion on this subject, and I'm here to learn.

That said, I don't understand how calling his check-raise can be "so bad", and I don't agree that we have to raise flop to get value with this hand - this can easily turn into a ~400bb pot with just two more bets, and I think that potsize would get value from a wide range. Obviously you might lose some value from worse trips, but at the same time you save money when behind. If you want to play for stacks here, I agree that a raise is in order - the question is whether it's the most EV+ play.

There is a flush draw, but the board is paired and there are no other draws, this board is fairly dry. I think FDs only make up a small portion of villains range. Is protecting your hand really an issue at this point in the hand?

I'm not saying 400bb is the perfect potsize, or that reraising is a losing play, I'm just trying to understand what makes the most money vs villains entire range. Weaker trips and pps might be willing to put more money in the pot if you don't raise the flop, but if it makes up for losing value from KJ I'm not sure. I just think there are several things to consider before building a huge pot/committing, and there might be more than one line with merit here.

I think this situation is more opponent dependant than anything, but I'd love to get some more input on this situation.

EDIT:
Or is this really a no-brainer commitment against even the nittiest of players? I could of course be overestimating villains ability to get a way from a worse hand - maybe just the lack of more defined reads makes this an easy commitment against the range of average decent-ish players at nl30.