Artificial Pot Odds

[udbrky]

This was alluded to the other day in another thread, and was something I've been wondering about for a while, but didn't really have a term in my head for it.

If I'm thinking of the same thing the alluders were, it's where you raise and commit yourself to calling a re-raise, most likely an all-in, with any two cards because you have the pot odds on the push, when you wouldn't be getting the odds to call his open push.

For example, Blinds are 100-200, you have 10,000, SB has 1500, BB has 1000 after posting. So, there's 300 in the pot. Folds to you. You have ATC and raise to 600 (pot is 900).

SB folds, BB pushes for 1000, pot is 1600, and it's 400 to you to call. You're getting the right odds to call with just about anything.

Do you avoid these situations? Do you welcome them?

What's your opening range against the short stacks? Do you tighten up to only what would be +EV against his calling range?

Do you just put the short stacks all in when you're stealing?

I get into these situations a lot, especially if I have a stack, but I feel like it costs me a lot of chips in pots where I'm a significant underdog, and end up playing a marginally +EV situation at best.

If there's good threads on this, can someone please link me, I haven't seen any.

[the alex]

If I'm not folding to a reshove from anyone behind me, I just shove. The only hands I'm really going to encourage action from is probably 99/TT+/AQ+.

As for my range, it depends how many people are left to act and the stage of the tournament i.e. on/near a bubble and such.

You should take a look at the pushbot charts. Just search it and you'll find the thread. There was a recent thread MTTc wher esomeone asked for it and they were linked in there.

[BrandiFan]

Avoid stealing from a short stack unless you have reason to think they're trying to fold into higher money...
The reference to artificial pot odds was really unsound strategy.
The money you have put in the pot already doesn't matter, it's there. If you're facing an all in, you either have the correct pot odds to call or you don't. The fact that you may have made a donk raise to get the pot size to where it is isn't relevant to whether or not you are mathematically correct to call.

[udbrky]

[ QUOTE ]
Avoid stealing from a short stack unless you have reason to think they're trying to fold into higher money...
The reference to artificial pot odds was really unsound strategy.
The money you have put in the pot already doesn't matter, it's there. If you're facing an all in, you either have the correct pot odds to call or you don't. The fact that you may have made a donk raise to get the pot size to where it is isn't relevant to whether or not you are mathematically correct to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I questioned - whether the raise should be made in the first place, if you're going to be priced into a call with a really weak hand.

Do you give up a lot of chips from steals if you tighten up? I understand the money you bet is the pot's. I just question whether I should've put it in there in the first place sometimes.

Thanks for the advice alex about the charts.

[BrandiFan]

You can still bring in for raises, just consider who is left to act after you, whether you'd have to call if they shove, and how unhappy you'd be about showing down your hand.
I'll target shorties in the blinds with hands like A9, KQ, or small pairs where I am likely ahead of their "desperation range". You can still open for a couple hands a round in most cases if you're the bully.

[the alex]

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm not folding to a reshove from anyone behind me, I just shove. The only hands I'm really going to encourage action from is probably 99/TT+/AQ+.

As for my range, it depends how many people are left to act and the stage of the tournament i.e. on/near a bubble and such.

You should take a look at the pushbot charts. Just search it and you'll find the thread. There was a recent thread MTTc wher esomeone asked for it and they were linked in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

In case what's bolded is unclear, I meant that when I hold those hands, I'm raise/calling more as opposed to shoving. I'm not saying that those are the only hands I expect action from.

[erc007]

[ QUOTE ]
This was alluded to the other day in another thread, and was something I've been wondering about for a while, but didn't really have a term in my head for it.

If I'm thinking of the same thing the alluders were, it's where you raise and commit yourself to calling a re-raise, most likely an all-in, with any two cards because you have the pot odds on the push, when you wouldn't be getting the odds to call his open push.

For example, Blinds are 100-200, you have 10,000, SB has 1500, BB has 1000 after posting. So, there's 300 in the pot. Folds to you. You have ATC and raise to 600 (pot is 900).

SB folds, BB pushes for 1000, pot is 1600, and it's 400 to you to call. You're getting the right odds to call with just about anything.

Do you avoid these situations? Do you welcome them?

What's your opening range against the short stacks? Do you tighten up to only what would be +EV against his calling range?

Do you just put the short stacks all in when you're stealing?

I get into these situations a lot, especially if I have a stack, but I feel like it costs me a lot of chips in pots where I'm a significant underdog, and end up playing a marginally +EV situation at best.

If there's good threads on this, can someone please link me, I haven't seen any.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the key point here is that in order for a steal to be EV+, raiser has to have some % of FE. In your example above, I would not have raised without a hand that's in the upper part of my LP range b/c of the shortstacked BB. The rule of thumb which states that it's easier to steal from med size stacks (as opposed to Big or Sm) still applies, even when u have a big stack yourself. I guess u could argue both ways that it's good/not good (for your image) to open then call shoves light. You determine your EV when u steal by calculating your FE+showdown value+pot odds as a zero-sum equation. If your % of lost FE can be made up for, or compensated by, a stronger showdown value/and or greater pot odds then the EV of the play doesn't change.